Surface Devices

Do you own a Surface device

  • Yes I own a Surface Pro or Surfacebook - it’s great

    Votes: 109 59.2%
  • Yes I own a Surface laptop - it’s great

    Votes: 19 10.3%
  • No - i’m not a fan

    Votes: 29 15.8%
  • Not anymore I had a bad experience

    Votes: 27 14.7%

  • Total voters
    184

Queen6

macrumors 604
Great comments about the state of Apple and its shabby and abusive customer treatment.
Sadly Apple just became too big, caring ever more for the $$$$ rather than the customer. Where older Mac's perfect absolutely not, equally one did sense that Apple was doing it's level best to produce the best it possibly could. Today Apple is solely focused on revenue at all costs, hence why we see such a poor Mac line up today; old designs, over spec'd & under performing, shoddy SW, elevated prices frequently requiring in-house upgrades with deliberate excessive margins, worse designed to be so and seemingly endless issues.

As clichéd as it may be, it's a shame that the Apple has fallen so very far from the tree. Only difference these days is that Apple has learnt to dress up it's errors and appease the end users via it's physical stores. At the end of the day a pig in lipstick is what it is...

Q-6
 
Last edited:

Dave245

macrumors 604
Original poster
Sep 15, 2013
7,542
5,405
Sadly Apple just became too big, caring ever more for the $$$$ rather than the customer. Where older Mac's perfect absolutely not, equally one did sense that Apple was doing it's level best to produce the best it possibly could. Today Apple is solely focused on revenue at all costs, hence why we see such a poor Mac line up today; old designs, over spec'd & under performing, shoddy SW, elevated prices frequently requiring in-house upgrades with deliberate excessive margins, worse designed to be so and seemingly endless issues.

As clichéd as it may be, it's a shame that the Apple has fallen so very far from the tree. Only difference these days is that Apple has learnt to dress up it's errors and appease the end users via it's physical stores. At the end of the day a pig in lipstick is what it is...

Q-6
I think under Tim Cooks leadership, Apple has become more focused on IOS devices (iPad Pro in particular). I think for a long time they left the Mac to languish and as a result it fell behind in quality and even regular updates.

That being said I’m at a very difficult crossroads, I like the iPad Pro, I think it works well as a tablet and consumption device. I like the Apple Pencil for drawing, taking notes and so on. However it‘s the quality that worries me, having had issues with my 2017 iPad Pro (that Apple eventually replaced) I’m reluctant to buy a new one (even more so with the “bendgate“ issues in the 2018 model).
 
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Queen6

macrumors 604
I think under Tim Cooks leadership, Apple has become more focused on IOS devices (iPad Pro in particular). I think for a long time they left the Mac to languish and as a result it fell behind in quality and even regular updates.

That being said I’m at a very difficult crossroads, I like the iPad Pro, I think it works well as a tablet and consumption device. I like the Apple Pencil for drawing, taking notes and so on. However it‘s the quality that worries me, having had issues with my 2017 iPad Pro (that Apple eventually replaced) I’m reluctant to buy a new one (even more so with the “bendgate“ issues in the 2018 model).
Tim Cook is an excellent CEO without any doubts, equally he is very much a CEO in the traditional sense. Apple now is simply a numbers game; crunching numbers to balance profit and loss. The DNA is simply becoming far too diluted, there's no sense of adventure or magic these days, with Apple now being the IBM of it's own super bowl advert from 1984...

I've tried the iPad in the past. To me it remains to be very much a consumption device that Apple is incrementally moving to a highly locked down replacement for the portable Mac line up. IOS devices are very likely far cheaper to bring to market with better margins and shorter lifecycles, perfect for the Apple of today. Personally I now always opt for a small W10 2in1 in my working rotation and have no interest in deliberately limited secondary or tertiary devices that for my needs are not capable of adding value to the workflow.

Very much agree I believe Apple deliberately allowed the Mac to wither to judge the public response with the hope that Apple's outdated portable's would increase iPad sales. Unfortunately for Apple it didn't gauge the public reaction correctly, even now Apple remains to over promise and under deliver with the Mac. Far too many issues with what is marketed as professional & premium. Apple simply doesn't have the magic it once did, Steve Jobs for all his negatives could gauge the public opinion, even sway the public. Today Apple simply comes across as being lacklustre, arrogant & stubborn, dare I say boring. Apple does produce some decent products, yet many are flawed and worse remain to be so for several years without correction.

Personally I'd hold off on the IPP and see how things develop. As with many who have been long-term customers, I believe we have done our fair share of Beta testing. These days I deliberately keep the Mac's several OS versions behind and I wont endeavour on new Mac purchases until the smoke clears. This works well for my needs as no issues to deal with. Not so much for Apple as have ceased dealing with Apple professionally.

In short I don't belive in rewarding companies that disregard the customer, be it in the professional or private realm, irrespective of their size, excuses and slick marketing...

Q-6
 
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Dave245

macrumors 604
Original poster
Sep 15, 2013
7,542
5,405
Tim Cook is an excellent CEO without any doubts, equally he is very much a CEO in the traditional sense. Apple now is simply a numbers game; crunching numbers to balance profit and loss. The DNA is simply becoming far too diluted, there's no sense of adventure or magic these days, with Apple now being the IBM of it's own super bowl advert from 1984...

I've tried the iPad in the past. To me it remains to be very much a consumption device that Apple is incrementally moving to a highly locked down replacement for the portable Mac line up. IOS devices are very likely far cheaper to bring to market with better margins and shorter lifecycles, perfect for the Apple of today. Personally I now always opt for a small W10 2in1 in my working rotation and have no interest in deliberately limited secondary or tertiary devices that for my needs are not capable of adding value to the workflow.

Very much agree I believe Apple deliberately allowed the Mac to wither to judge the public response with the hope that Apple's outdated portable's would increase iPad sales. Unfortunately for Apple it didn't gauge the public reaction correctly, even now Apple remains to over promise and under deliver with the Mac. Far too many issues with what is marketed as professional & premium. Apple simply doesn't have the magic it once did, Steve Jobs for all his negatives could gauge the public opinion, even sway the public. Today Apple simply comes across as being lacklustre, arrogant & stubborn, dare I say boring. Apple does produce some decent products, yet many are flawed and worse remain to be so for several years without correction.

Personally I'd hold off on the IPP and see how things develop. As with many who have been long-term customers, I believe we have done our fair share of Beta testing. These days I deliberately keep the Mac's several OS versions behind and I wont endeavour on new Mac purchases until the smoke clears. This works well for my needs as no issues to deal with. Not so much for Apple as have ceased dealing with Apple professionally.

In short I don't belive in rewarding companies that disregard the customer, be it in the professional or private realm, irrespective of their size, excuses and slick marketing...

Q-6
He’s a great CEO, that I don’t doubt. I really think that he believes he’s doing what’s right for Apple, however I find myself questioning Apple and my use of their products more and more. Just looking at the price of the new 2020 iPad Pro, for the price of the 12.9“ with he new type cover I could buy the Surface Pro 7 with its type cover and pen! Possibly even the Surface Pro X even.

Apple is trying to charge over £300 for a keyboard that has a trackpad. What I just don’t understand is that Apple was always against the 2in1 device, they now seem to be edging towards it, why? Is it because they see the 2 billion dollar business that Microsoft are making from Surface? or do think they themselves were wrong about it.

I’ve been an Apple user for many years now, it just doesn’t feel the same (I know that may sound weird) it seems stale and dare I say boring. The iPad Pro I just don’t understand, adding a keyboard with track pad and mouse support no longer keeps it as just a tablet.
 

Dave245

macrumors 604
Original poster
Sep 15, 2013
7,542
5,405
You are correct Dave. My switch six months ago from an iPhone to my first ever Android has been a very pleasant eye opener. It is how my father described his post cataract experience. "Things have gone from cloudy and frustrating to a positive clear view of life's possibilities"
at this moment in time I’m patiently waiting for Surface Neo and Duo to be released. I will then wait to see reviews and maybe a couple of months to see if any issues arise, if not I will be buying. Neo and duo are what Apple should of made, at least Microsoft are trying.
 

Northern Man

macrumors 6502a
Aug 25, 2013
915
1,311
at this moment in time I’m patiently waiting for Surface Neo and Duo to be released. I will then wait to see reviews and maybe a couple of months to see if any issues arise, if not I will be buying. Neo and duo are what Apple should of made, at least Microsoft are trying.
I am happily using my almost 7 year old 2013 13" MacBook Pro. No complaints. This laptop has had no servicing, no internal cleaning, no trips to a repair shop at all. But it was produced by an Apple company that no longer exists. There were a few slips over the years but compared to Apple today, that was an Apple that cared about quality, reputation, customers, user experiences, transparency, and realised that customers would return if they were treated fairly and received value and service for money spent.
Once this laptop dies I am not sure what will replace it. Apple has not done much recently to earn my business. The almost 4 years of knowingly selling a defective keyboard is the epitome of greed, arrogance and a F*** you to customers. Very sad indeed.
 

Dave245

macrumors 604
Original poster
Sep 15, 2013
7,542
5,405
I am happily using my almost 7 year old 2013 13" MacBook Pro. No complaints. This laptop has had no servicing, no internal cleaning, no trips to a repair shop at all. But it was produced by an Apple company that no longer exists. There were a few slips over the years but compared to Apple today, that was an Apple that cared about quality, reputation, customers, user experiences, transparency, and realised that customers would return if they were treated fairly and received value and service for money spent.
Once this laptop dies I am not sure what will replace it. Apple has not done much recently to earn my business. The almost 4 years of knowingly selling a defective keyboard is the epitome of greed, arrogance and a F*** you to customers. Very sad indeed.
I think my current iPad Pro (from 2017) will be my last. Now that Apple have added this mouse support and a keyboard with trackpad, they are turning the iPad into a computer. For that I can get a Surface device which will be an actual computer.

Holding out for Surface Neo, but Surface Book 3 may be an interesting device, when it launches.
 
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Northern Man

macrumors 6502a
Aug 25, 2013
915
1,311
I think my current iPad Pro (from 2017) will be my last. Now that Apple have added this mouse support and a keyboard with trackpad, they are turning the iPad into a computer. For that I can get a Surface device which will be an actual computer.

Holding out for Surface Neo, but Surface Book 3 may be an interesting device, when it launches.
Interesting times ahead. Look forward to seeing where you go.
 
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Queen6

macrumors 604
I am happily using my almost 7 year old 2013 13" MacBook Pro. No complaints. This laptop has had no servicing, no internal cleaning, no trips to a repair shop at all. But it was produced by an Apple company that no longer exists. There were a few slips over the years but compared to Apple today, that was an Apple that cared about quality, reputation, customers, user experiences, transparency, and realised that customers would return if they were treated fairly and received value and service for money spent.
Once this laptop dies I am not sure what will replace it. Apple has not done much recently to earn my business. The almost 4 years of knowingly selling a defective keyboard is the epitome of greed, arrogance and a F*** you to customers. Very sad indeed.
Never a truer word said, what a sheer and utter disappointment Apple sold out....

Q-6
 
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KarmaRocket

macrumors 6502
Jan 4, 2009
251
202
Brooklyn, NY
I couldn't agree more with some comments here. I think the Apple we loved is long gone. Tim Cook would be a great CEO for a lot of tech companies, but he's no Steve Jobs. It is unfair to compare Cook to Jobs, but the decline of quality control and innovation should always fall on the CEO. Raising the prices should also raise our expectations.

I was going to buy a new iPad Pro. But now I'm thinking maybe I'll wait and just get an updated iPad mini (or mini pro if they ever make one).I'm also holding off on the iPad because lately, the Neo has caught my attention. The Duo as well. I think Microsoft was smart to introduce them early. They've at least made me think twice about getting an iPad and iPhone this year. I'm also really interested in seeing what Microsoft does with the Surface Book 3.

What I really want from Microsoft are better apps. I think it would be killer for them to come out with a universal messenger app that ran on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. Something that combines SMS, MMS, RCS, Video and Audio. Messenger and Facetime in one app. They have the technology and know how with Skype and Teams. Could be something to entice Mac users who are used to having messenger and facetime running across their devices.

Also, better Photos, Music, Podcast apps. Say what you will about Apple, but they have some decent apps that are pretty good to ok. Having all these apps shared across Win10, Win10X and the Duo would be nice. Windows has a lot of third party apps that can handle those needs but nothing that can run seamlessly over many devices. They need to start thinking about that now that they are getting into the tablet and phone markets.

I will still need a Mac for XCode and some Final Cut Pro. But it probably won't be my main machine and might just remote into it when I need XCode. Slowly Apple is losing money from me, and I don't think I'm the only one.
 

Queen6

macrumors 604
I couldn't agree more with some comments here. I think the Apple we loved is long gone. Tim Cook would be a great CEO for a lot of tech companies, but he's no Steve Jobs. It is unfair to compare Cook to Jobs, but the decline of quality control and innovation should always fall on the CEO. Raising the prices should also raise our expectations.

I was going to buy a new iPad Pro. But now I'm thinking maybe I'll wait and just get an updated iPad mini (or mini pro if they ever make one).I'm also holding off on the iPad because lately, the Neo has caught my attention. The Duo as well. I think Microsoft was smart to introduce them early. They've at least made me think twice about getting an iPad and iPhone this year. I'm also really interested in seeing what Microsoft does with the Surface Book 3.

What I really want from Microsoft are better apps. I think it would be killer for them to come out with a universal messenger app that ran on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. Something that combines SMS, MMS, RCS, Video and Audio. Messenger and Facetime in one app. They have the technology and know how with Skype and Teams. Could be something to entice Mac users who are used to having messenger and facetime running across their devices.

Also, better Photos, Music, Podcast apps. Say what you will about Apple, but they have some decent apps that are pretty good to ok. Having all these apps shared across Win10, Win10X and the Duo would be nice. Windows has a lot of third party apps that can handle those needs but nothing that can run seamlessly over many devices. They need to start thinking about that now that they are getting into the tablet and phone markets.

I will still need a Mac for XCode and some Final Cut Pro. But it probably won't be my main machine and might just remote into it when I need XCode. Slowly Apple is losing money from me, and I don't think I'm the only one.
Currently having a resurgence with the Mac no thx to COVID-19 & 3 months at home. I did enjoy reviving the much maligned & abused 2011 15" MBP, sadly it only served to vividly illustrate Apple's greed & selfishness that we see all too clearly today, with it's; enforced locked down, locked in appliances, excessive margins on mandatory inhouse upgrades, predestined trips to the landfill and a double helping of hypocrisy with extra hubris on top.

My 360 degree 2in1 UMPC is where I rather expected Apple to go, ironically it will be Microsoft and Neo that will likely complete the loop. As for Apple they can branch out into toasters for all I care, until proven otherwise...

Q-6
 
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derekamoss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
923
500
Houston, TX
Currently having a resurgence with the Mac no thx to COVID-19 & 3 months at home. I did enjoy reviving the much maligned & abused 2011 15" MBP, sadly it only served to vividly illustrate Apple's greed & selfishness that we see all too clearly today, with it's; enforced locked down, locked in appliances, excessive margins on mandatory inhouse upgrades, predestined trips to the landfill and a double helping of hypocrisy with extra hubris on top.

My 360 degree 2in1 UMPC is where I rather expected Apple to go, ironically it will be Microsoft and Neo that will likely complete the loop. As for Apple they can branch out into toasters for all I care, until proven otherwise...

Q-6
This is what I find the most frustrating. Apple mainstreamed multi touch displays. iPhone, iPod touch, iPad and yet they are the ONLY large PC vendor that doesn't have touch screen displays in their computers. They made it to where people WANTED a touch screen, but at least we got the ***** touch bar though!
 

Queen6

macrumors 604
This is what I find the most frustrating. Apple mainstreamed multi touch displays. iPhone, iPod touch, iPad and yet they are the ONLY large PC vendor that doesn't have touch screen displays in their computers. They made it to where people WANTED a touch screen, but at least we got the ***** touch bar though!
TBH the Mac has just become an exercise in frustration. Anybody who actually thinks about it, the entire situation is driven by wanting the customer to purchase as many items of deliberately limited hardware as possible and subscribe to as many services as possible. Apple has become extremely hostile towards the consumer on so many levels, it's laughable given the roots of the company. Unfortunately Apple is now so big it no longer cares one way or the other as long as the blind masses are willing to be impressed by Tricks & Bells and hand over the cash.

Purely anecdotal; I'm a senior quality in the energy industry working globally, five years ago we all ran Mac's, being consultants we have the pick & choice of the best. Today I don't know a single individual who remains on the platform, with some being staunch Apple advocates. All now defer to W10 based hardware or Linux as macOS and it's associated hardware is simply a joke, focused ever more on spin, excuses and greed, nor is pricing an issue.

Frankly Apple and the Mac makes my blood boil, so much potential so completely and utterly wasted...

On the brighter side Microsoft and Surface have filed that spot not perfect by any means, however the progress is clear with transparency. I don't love Microsoft, equally credit where credit is due, they have the imagination and technical ability to actually innovate and bring new meaningful devices to market. Neo is firmly in my sights unless Microsoft miss the mark which I doubt. As for Apple is fitting that "Computer" is no longer an aspect of the companies name...

Q-6
 
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derekamoss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
923
500
Houston, TX
TBH the Mac has just become an exercise in frustration. Anybody who actually thinks about it, the whole situation is driven by wanting the customer to purchase as many items of deliberately limited hardware as possible and subscribe to as many services as possible. Apple now is extremely hostile towards the consumer on so many levels, it's laughable given the roots of the company. Unfortunately Apple is now so big it no longer cares one way or the other as long as the blind masses are willing to be impressed by Tricks & Bells and hand over the cash.

Purely anecdotal; I'm a senior quality in the energy industry working globally, five years ago we all ran Mac's, being consultants we have the pick & choice of the best. Today I don't know a single individual who remains on the platform, with some being staunch Apple advocates. All now defer to W10 based hardware or Linux as macOS and it's associated hardware is simply a joke, focused ever more on spin, excuses, greed, nor is the pricing an issue.

Frankly Apple and the Mac makes my blood boil, so much potential completely and utterly wasted...

Q-6
I agree with you 100%. I switched to Macs right before Windows XP was released. I actually beta tested Windows XP. That was when I was a sophomore in High School. My first Mac was an iBook G3 and came preloaded with OS9 and OS X 1.0. Even back then Apple would sometimes piss me off with their choices on some stuff but overall Apple as a whole was exciting and you could tell they were making things to please customers, not just to make money. The iPod is a great example of that. I stayed with Apple till 2012. I was getting frustrated with my iPhone 4 and iOS that I jumped ship to a windows phone. Before this i was a huge apple advocate. I managed to switch my whole family to Apple. I worked at Fry's Electronics in my city being the only Apple Certified employee. So switching to a windows phone was a big deal. At that time I still had a 2011 15' Mac Book Pro and had just bought an iPad 1st gen and rarely used the iPad but liked the idea of a tablet for very casual use. After using window phone i realized how stale and boring iOS was on the iPad so I bought a Surface RT running Windows 8 and gave the iPad away. At this point I till loved OS X and wasnt thinking of switching back to windows.

What ended up happening was I started using the RT more than the Macbook pro, and believe me the Surface RT was limited. I even bought a keyboard and mouse for it and made a little docking station for it and was using that instead of jut using the Macbook Pro when I needed to type something, or do work. it came to a point where I gave my macbook pro to my sister and just used the RT as my main computer. All my work is done through word and outlook so it wasnt a bother. At this point I still would have jumped back if Apple had just put OS X on a freaking tablet and called it a day, even if it wasnt perfectly optimized. I used to have wanted the old Windows XP tablets even back in like 2003 o a tablet form factor was always on my want list and using full window on the RT just made it where I could never go back to a traditional laptop again. Apple has had since 2011 to make a product like the surface devices but all they have done is make a bigger freaking iPad. To be honest, even Steve wanted us to buy as many products as we could instead of making one product that does all but at least when he did it it wasnt just to make money, it was to get people using as many Apple devices as he could because they were better. Now Tim just does the same thing but doesnt want you to have more products because they are better, just so he can have more money, I honestly believe Tim Cook was the worst mistake Apple made. Dont get me wrong, he is brilliant when it comes to financials and supply chain but thats where he should have been kept. They should have had it to where Tim as the COO and someone who grew up with technology prowess as the CEO and made them both in charge. If you put just A supply chain guy in charge he will always look how to make more profit. If you put just a electronic guru in charge he will make the best computer and not worry about the bottom line income. Apple needs balance.

This is how I look at it, the second Apple held their Apple watch keynote and had people on stage talking about menstrual cycles, I realized this is definitely not the Apple I used to know and has lost its way lol.
 
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xraydoc

macrumors demi-god
Oct 9, 2005
7,552
1,747
192.168.1.1
TBH the Mac has just become an exercise in frustration. Anybody who actually thinks about it, the entire situation is driven by wanting the customer to purchase as many items of deliberately limited hardware as possible and subscribe to as many services as possible. Apple has become extremely hostile towards the consumer on so many levels, it's laughable given the roots of the company. Unfortunately Apple is now so big it no longer cares one way or the other as long as the blind masses are willing to be impressed by Tricks & Bells and hand over the cash.

Purely anecdotal; I'm a senior quality in the energy industry working globally, five years ago we all ran Mac's, being consultants we have the pick & choice of the best. Today I don't know a single individual who remains on the platform, with some being staunch Apple advocates. All now defer to W10 based hardware or Linux as macOS and it's associated hardware is simply a joke, focused ever more on spin, excuses and greed, nor is pricing an issue.

Frankly Apple and the Mac makes my blood boil, so much potential so completely and utterly wasted...

On the brighter side Microsoft and Surface have filed that spot not perfect by any means, however the progress is clear with transparency. I don't love Microsoft, equally credit where credit is due, they have the imagination and technical ability to actually innovate and bring new meaningful devices to market. Neo is firmly in my sights unless Microsoft miss the mark which I doubt. As for Apple is fitting that "Computer" is no longer an aspect of the companies name...

Q-6
My frustration with Apples comes from the decade-long absence of a mid-level desktop Mac.

I went through several desktop Macs back in the day. The bondi-blue desktop G3 was an amazing desktop for the day. A desktop G4 followed. The dual-processor, water cooled G5 behemoth was pretty much unstoppable. The first generation Intel Xeon Mac Pro was my next desktop. Dual dual-core Xeon. Pretty impressive for the time. Filled that thing with RAM and multiple hard drives and two optical drives and used it for years, upgrading the GPU twice over. And despite being a "Pro" machine, the prices were based in reality. Acquired a 2013 quad-core i7 27" iMac along the way, still using the gen 1 Mac Pro as a second machine.

Then it came time to upgrade again. Trashcan Mac Pro was too expensive once properly configured and had essentially zero future upgradability. I didn't want another iMac because I wanted to choose my own displays and again, no future upgradabilty beyond adding RAM. The mini, of which I owned two (for the office) wasn't nearly enough of a machine to be my primary computer (and external GPUs are only recently viable).

I ended up with a 2016 15" MacBook Pro. It had a faster processor than any Mac mini at the time and a far better GPU (compared to the GPU-less mini), and was 1/3 the price of a cylindrical Mac Pro with equivalent storage & RAM. But it's a laptop, and I really needed a desktop. To be fair, it's been a fine machine and still running without trouble to this day. Even the keyboard still works and has never (yet) needed replacement. It's my wife's now, and she's very satisfied. But it's a laptop, and I needed a desktop.

So again I waited.

And we got a $6000 base-level Mac Pro which, while a Hollywood director's dream, was not within the budget for "normal" folks. Apple wanted us normals to buy an iMac or a MacBook Pro. But again, I wanted to choose my own displays, have desktop-class components, and at least some upgradability to extend my hard-earned, high-dollar investment.

Ultimately I had to make a choice. It's Apple's right to decide a desktop non-pro customer like me isn't worth their trouble, so...

So now I'm typing this on a brand new desktop PC running Windows 10. Sorry, but it had to be done. I have things I want to accomplish... work, hobbies.

8 core desktop-class i7 processor (overclocked for pretty impressive single-core performance). RTX 2070 Super GPU (upgradable). Fast NVMe internal storage (upgradable). 32GB of RAM (upgradable). Supports any display(s) I choose to attach to it.

It's faster than almost any Mac available today under $6000 and cost only $1400 with a total of 1.5TB of internal SSD. The display of my choice was another $700. Sure, a 2019 Mac Pro or iMac Pro with proper configuration can beat it, but it'll cost literally 4-5x as much. My new machine even beats a $10,000 12-core cylindrical Mac Pro on benchmarks.

No, it doesn't run MacOS, which is a huge negative. But I use Windows 10 at work every day anyway and at home on my work-issued laptop, and most of the software I use is cross-platform. For $5000+ back in my pocket, I'll adapt. I'm not running a Final Cut X-based commercial video production company, so I'm not really locked-in. Just a regular guy.

Still use & love my iPhone. Same with my iPad Pro -- can't live without it. But on the desktop, the Mac has become expendable.

And as I've posted before, my Surface Book 2 is a damn fine laptop.
 

derekamoss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
923
500
Houston, TX
My frustration with Apples comes from the decade-long absence of a mid-level desktop Mac.

I went through several desktop Macs back in the day. The bondi-blue desktop G3 was an amazing desktop for the day. A desktop G4 followed. The dual-processor, water cooled G5 behemoth was pretty much unstoppable. The first generation Intel Xeon Mac Pro was my next desktop. Dual dual-core Xeon. Pretty impressive for the time. Filled that thing with RAM and multiple hard drives and two optical drives and used it for years, upgrading the GPU twice over. And despite being a "Pro" machine, the prices were based in reality. Acquired a 2013 quad-core i7 27" iMac along the way, still using the gen 1 Mac Pro as a second machine.

Then it came time to upgrade again. Trashcan Mac Pro was too expensive once properly configured and had essentially zero future upgradability. I didn't want another iMac because I wanted to choose my own displays and again, no future upgradabilty beyond adding RAM. The mini, of which I owned two (for the office) wasn't nearly enough of a machine to be my primary computer (and external GPUs are only recently viable).

I ended up with a 2016 15" MacBook Pro. It had a faster processor than any Mac mini at the time and a far better GPU (compared to the GPU-less mini), and was 1/3 the price of a cylindrical Mac Pro with equivalent storage & RAM. But it's a laptop, and I really needed a desktop. To be fair, it's been a fine machine and still running without trouble to this day. Even the keyboard still works and has never (yet) needed replacement. It's my wife's now, and she's very satisfied. But it's a laptop, and I needed a desktop.

So again I waited.

And we got a $6000 base-level Mac Pro which, while a Hollywood director's dream, was not within the budget for "normal" folks. Apple wanted us normals to buy an iMac or a MacBook Pro. But again, I wanted to choose my own displays, have desktop-class components, and at least some upgradability to extend my hard-earned, high-dollar investment.

Ultimately I had to make a choice. It's Apple's right to decide a desktop non-pro customer like me isn't worth their trouble, so...

So now I'm typing this on a brand new desktop PC running Windows 10. Sorry, but it had to be done. I have things I want to accomplish... work, hobbies.

8 core desktop-class i7 processor (overclocked for pretty impressive single-core performance). RTX 2070 Super GPU (upgradable). Fast NVMe internal storage (upgradable). 32GB of RAM (upgradable). Supports any display(s) I choose to attach to it.

It's faster than almost any Mac available today under $6000 and cost only $1400 with a total of 1.5TB of internal SSD. The display of my choice was another $700. Sure, a 2019 Mac Pro or iMac Pro with proper configuration can beat it, but it'll cost literally 4-5x as much. My new machine even beats a $10,000 12-core cylindrical Mac Pro on benchmarks.

No, it doesn't run MacOS, which is a huge negative. But I use Windows 10 at work every day anyway and at home on my work-issued laptop, and most of the software I use is cross-platform. For $5000+ back in my pocket, I'll adapt. I'm not running a Final Cut X-based commercial video production company, so I'm not really locked-in. Just a regular guy.

Still use & love my iPhone. Same with my iPad Pro -- can't live without it. But on the desktop, the Mac has become expendable.

And as I've posted before, my Surface Book 2 is a damn fine laptop.
Yep. I think the Surface Book right now is the best design wise ever made right now. Nothing else beats it in functionality.
 
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Queen6

macrumors 604
My frustration with Apples comes from the decade-long absence of a mid-level desktop Mac.

I went through several desktop Macs back in the day. The bondi-blue desktop G3 was an amazing desktop for the day. A desktop G4 followed. The dual-processor, water cooled G5 behemoth was pretty much unstoppable. The first generation Intel Xeon Mac Pro was my next desktop. Dual dual-core Xeon. Pretty impressive for the time. Filled that thing with RAM and multiple hard drives and two optical drives and used it for years, upgrading the GPU twice over. And despite being a "Pro" machine, the prices were based in reality. Acquired a 2013 quad-core i7 27" iMac along the way, still using the gen 1 Mac Pro as a second machine.

Then it came time to upgrade again. Trashcan Mac Pro was too expensive once properly configured and had essentially zero future upgradability. I didn't want another iMac because I wanted to choose my own displays and again, no future upgradabilty beyond adding RAM. The mini, of which I owned two (for the office) wasn't nearly enough of a machine to be my primary computer (and external GPUs are only recently viable).

I ended up with a 2016 15" MacBook Pro. It had a faster processor than any Mac mini at the time and a far better GPU (compared to the GPU-less mini), and was 1/3 the price of a cylindrical Mac Pro with equivalent storage & RAM. But it's a laptop, and I really needed a desktop. To be fair, it's been a fine machine and still running without trouble to this day. Even the keyboard still works and has never (yet) needed replacement. It's my wife's now, and she's very satisfied. But it's a laptop, and I needed a desktop.

So again I waited.

And we got a $6000 base-level Mac Pro which, while a Hollywood director's dream, was not within the budget for "normal" folks. Apple wanted us normals to buy an iMac or a MacBook Pro. But again, I wanted to choose my own displays, have desktop-class components, and at least some upgradability to extend my hard-earned, high-dollar investment.

Ultimately I had to make a choice. It's Apple's right to decide a desktop non-pro customer like me isn't worth their trouble, so...

So now I'm typing this on a brand new desktop PC running Windows 10. Sorry, but it had to be done. I have things I want to accomplish... work, hobbies.

8 core desktop-class i7 processor (overclocked for pretty impressive single-core performance). RTX 2070 Super GPU (upgradable). Fast NVMe internal storage (upgradable). 32GB of RAM (upgradable). Supports any display(s) I choose to attach to it.

It's faster than almost any Mac available today under $6000 and cost only $1400 with a total of 1.5TB of internal SSD. The display of my choice was another $700. Sure, a 2019 Mac Pro or iMac Pro with proper configuration can beat it, but it'll cost literally 4-5x as much. My new machine even beats a $10,000 12-core cylindrical Mac Pro on benchmarks.

No, it doesn't run MacOS, which is a huge negative. But I use Windows 10 at work every day anyway and at home on my work-issued laptop, and most of the software I use is cross-platform. For $5000+ back in my pocket, I'll adapt. I'm not running a Final Cut X-based commercial video production company, so I'm not really locked-in. Just a regular guy.

Still use & love my iPhone. Same with my iPad Pro -- can't live without it. But on the desktop, the Mac has become expendable.

And as I've posted before, my Surface Book 2 is a damn fine laptop.
Can totally understand your frustrations, for me it started with the software first (10.11) then rose rapidly due to the hardware (MBP). Problem I have with Apple is that it wants absolutely everything on it's own terms, and being such a juggernaut thx to iPhone Apple simply doesn't care if it looses Mac focused customers.

New Mac Pro is certainly not for the average person by any means. To me it's more designed to be rack mounted in studios and definitely a piece of hardware one would want to be generating significant revenue, as realistically once again the base model is fairly limited, so inhouse upgrades are mandatory.

At the end of the day Apple created the Mac ecosystem, yet fails to support the spectrum of users needs and worse treats the whole thing as near abandonware. Sadly I firmly believe without the negative commentary from the community and tech press the Mac would be in a far worse state of affairs.

Hence this sub forum and the migration to W10/Linux...

Q-6
 
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drinkingtea

macrumors 6502
Jan 31, 2016
496
1,004
My Surface Book 2 is probably the best electronic gadget I have ever had, excluding the 1st gen iPod in 2002. It mostly stays in laptop mode since its my work computer but it really is amazing to be able to detach the screen especially when i am just browsing the web. Holding it landscape mode is very nice to view web pages in. If i am going to watch a movie off of it, ill probably detach it as well. I would say i am 80 percent laptop and 20 percent tablet which really baffles me because I had come from a surface pro 4 which i almost always used as a straight tablet and bought the surface book because the tablet portion was lighter and bigger thinking i would be using it the same way. A lot of it might be because the keyboard IMO just feels so damn good and enjoy typing on it where with my surface pro I wasnt a big fan of the keyboard and ended up just typing on screen. Honestly after getting used to this form factor, anything else now would just feel half assed.
How long does the battery last when the screen is detached? Have you had any issues with your SB2? I am thinking of buying myself one since it's $500 off right now. Do you think it could last me 4+ years?
 

xraydoc

macrumors demi-god
Oct 9, 2005
7,552
1,747
192.168.1.1
How long does the battery last when the screen is detached? Have you had any issues with your SB2? I am thinking of buying myself one since it's $500 off right now. Do you think it could last me 4+ years?
Battery on the tablet portion lasts about 2.5 hours with battery saver mode on.

I personally have had no trouble with mine. Had it about 20 months now. Had a Microsoft Pen die on me, but the replacement is working fine.

I suspect 4 years is reasonable, though they do have a low repairability score.
 
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c0ppo

macrumors 65816
Feb 11, 2013
1,473
2,699
How long does the battery last when the screen is detached? Have you had any issues with your SB2? I am thinking of buying myself one since it's $500 off right now. Do you think it could last me 4+ years?
SB2 is a great device, I've used one for 2 weeks. But it's way overpriced even with those 500$ off.
I would wait for SB3. Especially because SB2 doesn't even have TB3.

But then again, we all have different needs, so you will have to decide for yourself :)
 

derekamoss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
923
500
Houston, TX
How long does the battery last when the screen is detached? Have you had any issues with your SB2? I am thinking of buying myself one since it's $500 off right now. Do you think it could last me 4+ years?
The battery life detached is only like 2 hrs but you can charge it from the tablet on the bottom so as long as you are near AC you should be good. If i know I am going to want to use it as a tablet for longer i just fold the base with the keyboard facing the tablet so i get the full amount of battery life. I havent had any problems other than me dropping it and shattering the screen. Thank god for MS complete. IMO it should last 4+ years.
 

SteveJUAE

macrumors 68040
Aug 14, 2015
3,065
3,014
Land of Smiles
The battery life detached is only like 2 hrs but you can charge it from the tablet on the bottom so as long as you are near AC you should be good. If i know I am going to want to use it as a tablet for longer i just fold the base with the keyboard facing the tablet so i get the full amount of battery life. I havent had any problems other than me dropping it and shattering the screen. Thank god for MS complete. IMO it should last 4+ years.
Our SB2 has been fine for 2 years until last week when the base unit refused to acknowledge the top tablet

Its a very odd fault and as far as I can tell rare as the base unit still continuous to be on and the fans run regardless.

Even several days later they still kick on as the main batteries are the base

We hoped if we could deplete the battery that may restart the base but there is no way to drain it rapidly even with external devices as they too are not recognized when the tablet is not

What we have learned from this:

The top screen can be detached manually with a paper clip using the 6th hole up and a paper clip at 45 degs Google Youtube video​
The base unit is not really a serviceable part and other than from MS.​
Its almost impossible to get a replacement and then MS only do it with their extended warranties​

Fortunately as I bought the SB2 in Malaysia and I knew eventually it would end up in UK with my youngest I took out a Harvey Norman warranty that's ish international and and comes with a replacement clause if not repairable

The unit is now sent to Ireland MS repair point we await outcome

This should not be read overly negative as crap happens and it seems an unusual fault but if possible I would get the MS warranty if your plan is long term ownership, else its a great device and I miss it at times even over my $4k Razer laptop
 
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derekamoss

macrumors 6502a
Jul 18, 2002
923
500
Houston, TX
Our SB2 has been fine for 2 years until last week when the base unit refused to acknowledge the top tablet

Its a very odd fault and as far as I can tell rare as the base unit still continuous to be on and the fans run regardless.

Even several days later they still kick on as the main batteries are the base

We hoped if we could deplete the battery that may restart the base but there is no way to drain it rapidly even with external devices as they too are not recognized when the tablet is not

What we have learned from this:

The top screen can be detached manually with a paper clip using the 6th hole up and a paper clip at 45 degs Google Youtube video​
The base unit is not really a serviceable part and other than from MS.​
Its almost impossible to get a replacement and then MS only do it with their extended warranties​

Fortunately as I bought the SB2 in Malaysia and I knew eventually it would end up in UK with my youngest I took out a Harvey Norman warranty that's ish international and and comes with a replacement clause if not repairable

The unit is now sent to Ireland MS repair point we await outcome

This should not be read overly negative as crap happens and it seems an unusual fault but if possible I would get the MS warranty if your plan is long term ownership, else its a great device and I miss it at times even over my $4k Razer laptop
Yeah MS complete is the one warranty i really recommend. It is a great deal and good value. Has saved my ass a few times. (Never had the computer break down, its always been because of my own fault.)
 

Dave245

macrumors 604
Original poster
Sep 15, 2013
7,542
5,405
Never a truer word said, what a sheer and utter disappointment Apple sold out....

Q-6
Whats come to my attention lately are the price increases and and the lowering of customer service. The price of the new Smart Keyboard with trackpad and scissor keys is a lot higher than i it should be (in my opinion). For the price of that keyboard you could buy an iPad Air.

The thing is by the time you top everything out, prices can reach near £2,000 if you include the Apple Pencil, the Smart Keyboard with trackpad and the 12.9” iPad Pro.

For that kind of money you can buy buy the entry level Surface Book 2 :oops:

I regret selling my Surface Pro 6, at this stage I’m going to wait and see what happens with Neo and Duo. The Surface Book really interests me as well.

Anyone have an idea when Microsoft could announce the new Surface Book 3? Are we talking soon or the back end of this year?
 

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