Tax Cuts Didn’t Help These Harley-Davidson Workers

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mac'nCheese, May 22, 2018.

  1. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #26
    That’s not surprising to read here. It’s been my experience that this board skews significantly left, but I don’t think this is prevalent viewpoint if you take a cross section of Americans.

    I think there might be just a little bit of biase in this statement.
     
  2. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #27
    “Left” in America still holds firmly in the center right capitalist part of the spectrum compared to Most if the rest of the world. The “leftist” Bernie Sanders is policy-wise almost identical to Eisenhower, to give you a sense of how far to the right the country’s policies have drifted (regardless of the views of the population itself, whom don’t have a say in economic or foreign policy).
     
  3. Chew Toy McCoy macrumors regular

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    #28
    While we’re talking wealth and income, heard this recently from I don’t remember who but if you took away half of Jeff Bezos’ money we could cure world hunger or put everybody in this country through college and wipe out existing college debt, and he would still be one of the top 10 wealthiest people in the world. Perspective. This is the kind of grotesque country we’ve become allowing somebody to accumulate that much wealth while we get pissed off at unemployed people who have an Xbox they play on the regular.
     
  4. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #29
    But look at all the poverty level jobs he’s created!

    My uncle works in one of the warehouses.
     
  5. BeeGood macrumors 68000

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    #30
    Im not sure if Eisenhower ever said anything like, “No one should earn more than $1 million” or “Democracy means public ownership of the major means of production...Rather than having bosses and workers it means having democratic control over the factories and shops to as great a degree as you can”.

    Ike might have been left leaning by today’s standard (both men agreed on extremely high marginal tax rates for the wealthy), but I don’t think anyone would describe him as a socialist, which is precisely what Bernie is.

    Just to clarify, I am talking about American standards. I don’t want to be Europe (no offense to my buddies across the pond).
    --- Post Merged, May 22, 2018 ---
    I’d like to see a source with the math included before I buy that.
     
  6. NT1440 macrumors G5

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    #31
    Ike ran on bragging about union memberships.

    Also:

    Today in America unions have a secure place in our industrial life. Only a handful of unreconstructed reactionaries harbor the ugly thought of breaking unions. Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice.”

    Speech to the American Federation of Labor, New York City, 9/17/53

    That was the voice of REPUBLICANS 50 years ago. Today many of the unions themselves do the bidding of corporate power (the teachers unions have undermined the striking teachers in every single recent strike by accepting deals the teachers themselves don’t agree with), but the notion of a republican president accepting the notion of collective action, verses where we are today is simply breathtaking.
     
  7. chagla macrumors 6502a

    chagla

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    #32
    Was the tax cut intended to help people with low income? I don't think so. Rich got their handout in the form of tax cut. Bribery sounds bad, so it's political donation. When you are poor, you get handout, when you are rich, you get tax cut.
     
  8. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #33
    Argumentum ad populum. I don't necessarily think that a "cross-section of Americans" is necessarily a useful construct to use when talking about complex ideas, including economics and social policy.

    Bias? This assumes that my point is unfair. Though there's obviously hyperbole for dramatic effect, my point stands, the left/right dichotomy in this country is largely a set-up.

    Sanders appears to believe in capitalism, arguing that the U.S. should use some policies used by quasi-socialist Democracies like Canada and the U.K. to improve the lives of average Americans. In many ways, he's a throwback to Eisenhower and Truman.

    The GOP like to paint anything to the left of Goldwater as rampant communism, but that's just rhetorical nonsense from the tea-party set.

    But, the whole thing is an Overton Window, where the GOP screams that people who believe that maybe grandma shouldn't eat cat food are naked communists, and therefore when they try to tear apart the social contract, it's for the good of the nation.
     
  9. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #34
    QUIET. You can’t let the game be called that explicitly, people might actually hear you.:mad:
     
  10. BeeGood macrumors 68000

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    #35
    I wouldn’t exactly call unionization a socialist idea. Personally, I have no problems with unions and I think they’re useful in certain industries.

    Heck, Trump started an idiotic trade war that has proven to be great for certain unions. He’s been their best friend.
     
  11. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #36
    Nope. Even if Trump helps the steel union temporarily, the GOP's actions have mortally wounded unions, allowing companies like Harley-Davidson to trade out union employees for contractors in the same state.

    And, unions were long accused of being at the center of socialism and anarchism throughout the late-19th and early-20th centuries, but after the New Deal they entered in a long-term detente with owners that meant rising wages and benefits. Then, the GOP under Nixon began tearing at the fabric of those deals, collapsing these structures and decreasing wages.

    Now, we're all headed toward becoming gig economy plebes working for Bezos and Musk.
     
  12. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #37
    We're talking marginal V absolute taxation here.
     
  13. BorderingOn macrumors 6502

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    #38
    Not a great example. Harley is not doing well for a variety of reasons, some related to not making a product that appeals to younger or new customers.

    https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/03/harley-davidson-sales-go-from-bad-to-worse.aspx
     
  14. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #39
    That’s exactly what I’m saying, there is nothing “socialist” about unions but the public sentiment has drifted so far right that Americans today actually believe they are.
     
  15. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #40
    Trump is the leader of the Republican Party so if you are a Republican then you are for Trump. There is no difference.

    People are naturally socialist because human nature is not to be a loner. When you scale that up you find the Conservative is incompatible with the human population in general. Now, you were saying something about this so have the opportunity to correct your errors.
     
  16. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #41
    That's one of the real coups from the GOP.

    They've been attacking unions for 50 years because unions are Democratic bastions capable of getting out the vote, and business owners wanted to sack the unions so they could pay lower wages and earn higher profits.
     
  17. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #42
    You don't need to pre-qualify $100k being a mammoth amount of money with any conditionals. It is just. That somebody needs to spend crazy sums to no be living in squalor is their individual choice so it doesn't enter into the wider discussion of taxing this cuddly amount via appropriate supertax levels.
     
  18. BeeGood macrumors 68000

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    #43
    It’s a useful construct when you’re talking about elections, which was the point that I was making.

    People in the center will be pushed towards the right by ideas like UBI and income redistribution.

    No, it assumes that you have a bias.

    Typically hyperbole is indicative of this. Case in point:

    You just made a statement about the GOP stealing and selling children, and here you’re accusing the entire GOP of painting the left a certain way.

    I’m not really sure how to discuss any of these points.
     
  19. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #44
    Luke 20:45-21:4
     
  20. BorderingOn macrumors 6502

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    #45
    I didn't agree with this tax plan at all but low income citizens don't pay income taxes.
     
  21. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #46
    What do you mean “Nope”?

    I’m responding to a post that seems to be implying that Eisenhower was a leftist because he supported Unions. Trump is supportive of Unions. Is he a leftist too?
    --- Post Merged, May 22, 2018 ---
    Unions have a lot of responsibility to share in their public image. Many of them became corrupt and one can argue that they pushed wages up so far that they made several industries uncompetitive.

    So they might not be socialist, but they’re not all great either.
     
  22. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #47
    They sure do have plenty to answer for. Pushing wages up for regular workers is certainly not one of them. Wages have been stagnate for 40+ years.

    If by competitive you mean “competing with international sweatshop” labor, sure, but what kind of ridiculous statement is that to make?
     
  23. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #48
    That's a fair point.

    Look at the reaction to Sanders. He's a socialist, they say, totally ignoring that even Sanders at full-tilt is still a right-winger in most of Europe.

    I was talking about the relative differences between the parties and using hyperbole to illustrate why I'd "polish my hammer and sickle" which was also facetious.

    But, just because I'm making a ridiculous point for effect doesn't mean the GOP isn't trying to discredit unions and social welfare policies. That's a non sequitur.

    The GOP has tried to hurt the power of unions through both the law and politics and that has made it easier for companies like Harley-Davidson to dismiss hundreds of union workers in one city and then hire contractors in another. While scooping up a tax break that will be used to fuel a higher stock price—which is likely largely how the executives in that company are paid. (I assume, I haven't checked the numbers.)

    Even the phrase "income redistribution" is a bit of GOP-tailored gobbledygook from Frank Luntz. What does that mean?

    On the other hand, UBI is an interesting concept, but a political non-starter.
     
  24. BeeGood, May 22, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018

    BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #49
    This doesn’t map onto reality at all.

    Do you believe that John McCain is “for Trump”? What about a registered Republican who voted third party and has never supported Trump?

    I’m not sure if there is a more partisan worldview than what you just posted.

    That’s ridiculous.

    If socialism was so engrained into humans, why does it always have to be forced onto everyone? Why has it so often lead to totalitarianism?

    Believing that one should be responsible for his own standard of living (with a few exceptions) doesn’t make you a loner. It makes you a non-leach and you’ll probably get more friends that way.
    --- Post Merged, May 22, 2018 ---
    Paying some dude with a HS diploma $40/hour to push rivets through sheet metal is not the best way to compete with anyone. Internationally or otherwise.

    And there’s a ton of middle ground between that reality and paying people “sweatshop wages”. Let’s be realistic here.
     
  25. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #50
    Come'on.

    Big 'S' socialism is a modern invention, but there are long-term tribal practices that are inherently small 's' socialism. And, totalitarianism pre-configures socialism, communism, and capitalism.

    And, it's not like big 'C' capitalism just wandered into the colonies and asked people to engage in markets. Big 'C' capitalism came with soldiers and slavers—see Columbus to the Congo.

    I'm always struck by the myopia of the "screw you, it's mine" set.

    In tough situations, the best thing is to divide resources and skills to seek more, and in the best situations, the best thing is to share some wealth.

    The whole "leach" rhetoric is again just a sign that the GOP rhetoric has wormed deep into the American psyche.
     

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