Tax Cuts Didn’t Help These Harley-Davidson Workers

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
12,109
13,777
0
Paying some dude with a HS diploma $40/hour to push rivets through sheet metal is not the best way to compete with anyone. Internationally or otherwise.

And there’s a ton of middle ground between that reality and paying people “sweatshop wages”. Let’s be realistic here.
Show me the middle ground then. Capital chases handouts and the lowest wage/safety regulations. Show me where that’s not applicable. Who are factory workers competing against it not lower wage labor markets?

I don’t care if you never even went to high school, if you’re doing ANY kind of work full time (read: not kept part time for ******** regulation avoidance) it should pay an actual living wage.
[doublepost=1527021684][/doublepost]
I’m equally struck by the, “Screw you, I think you have too much so I’m taking yours for myself” set.

Particularly since we’ve seen how well that goes over historically.
Yea, it happens every couple of decades when workers have had enough of being **** on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eraserhead

Chew Toy McCoy

macrumors regular
May 13, 2016
202
2,694
0
But look at all the poverty level jobs he’s created!

My uncle works in one of the warehouses.
There’s rarely any real discussion by politicians or the corporate run news media on wages and cost of living. All they report on is unemployment numbers and call it mission accomplished. When there is any discussion on wages and cost of living it’s usually to discredit whoever is currently in office by the opposing party. When it’s switched to their people in office they conveniently stop talking about wages and cost of living. So it never changes. The only thing that changes is which current leading party they want to pin it on.
 

BeeGood

macrumors 68000
Sep 15, 2013
1,757
4,767
0
Lot 23E. Somewhere in Georgia.
Show me the middle ground then. Capital chases handouts and the lowest wage/safety regulations. Show me where that’s not applicable. Who are factory workers competing against it not lower wage labor markets?

I don’t care if you never even went to high school, if you’re doing ANY kind of work full time (read: not kept part time for ******** regulation avoidance) it should pay an actual living wage.
Here’s the middle ground. It’s pretty simple.

You get paid in accordance to what you produce.

You don’t get paid what the government says you should get paid. Or what some non-related third party thinks is “fair” (God I’m beginning to hate that word). You get paid relative to what your employer/customers value your work at.

If I spend 40 hours a week making candles out of manure and find out that no one wants to by them, why on earth should I be paid for that? That’s nonsense.

I reject this idea COMPLETELY. It’s a non-starter for me. If Trump has a stroke and goes completely nuts, I will vote for him and smile as a read every one of his vile tweets before I vote for a candidate that supports what you’re saying.

Yea, it happens every couple of decades when workers have had enough of being **** on.
Well, I’m personally not doing that to anyone. I started out earning minimum wage and I’ve worked my way up to better. Anyone who believes I’ve taken advantage of anyone and don’t deserve what I’ve earned can go take a leap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: old mac

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
12,109
13,777
0
There’s rarely any real discussion by politicians or the corporate run news media on wages and cost of living. All they report on is unemployment numbers and call it mission accomplished. When there is any discussion on wages and cost of living it’s usually to discredit whoever is currently in office by the opposing party. When it’s switched to their people in office they conveniently stop talking about wages and cost of living. So it never changes. The only thing that changes is which current leading party they want to pin it on.
That’s a great way to recognize that we are in a one party system with two diverging wings to it. The same policy at the end of the day on economics and war, it’s just a battle over how hard the policy will be pushed and whether it will have a friendly face on it.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

macrumors regular
May 13, 2016
202
2,694
0
That’s a great way to recognize that we are in a one party system with two diverging wings to it. The same policy at the end of the day on economics and war, it’s just a battle over how hard the policy will be pushed and whether it will have a friendly face on it.
One of the main things I find really discouraging right now is people defending either party. We’ve got a bunch of bygone era cheerleaders holding us back from real progress. Both parties should be ignored and abandoned completely (because they’ve done the same to us) and all effort by the people should be put into making other parties viable.
 

NT1440

macrumors G5
May 18, 2008
12,109
13,777
0
One of the main things I find really discouraging right now is people defending either party. We’ve got a bunch of bygone era cheerleaders holding us back from real progress. Both parties should be ignored and abandoned completely (because they’ve done the same to us) and all effort by the people should be put into making other parties viable.
Remember, Democrats are supposed to be happy to have someone like Joe Manchin seated. The tired, beaten down, fed through the wood chipper “logic” is that it would be disastrous to have an out and out republican, so it’s better to have the new wave of “blue dogs” like Manchin to prevent really bad things from happening.

Meanwhile, the likes of Joe Manchin are why we have a ****ing torturer in Charge of arguably one of the most gruesome covert armies in the world.
 

Chew Toy McCoy

macrumors regular
May 13, 2016
202
2,694
0
I’m equally struck by the, “Screw you, I think you have too much so I’m taking yours for myself” set.

Particularly since we’ve seen how well that goes over historically.
I’m struck by the “I worked hard for this so I deserve it” set when most the of insanely rich did not and probably don’t know what hard work actually is. Defending elitist entitlement might be a full time job but it’s not hard work.
 

BeeGood

macrumors 68000
Sep 15, 2013
1,757
4,767
0
Lot 23E. Somewhere in Georgia.
I’m struck by the “I worked hard for this so I deserve it” set when most the of insanely rich did not and probably don’t know what hard work actually is. Defending elitist entitlement might be a full time job but it’s not hard work.
Depending on how you define “insanely rich” (because some people in this thread have a ridiculous notion of what that is), this narrative just isn’t true.

The vast majority of millionaires in this country are self-made, first generation millionaires. There have been several studies on this.

And apparently, we’re not even talking about millionaires here. We’re talking about fleecing people who make $100K a year. That’s roughly 10% of all income earners. Millions of people. Engineers, programmers, people in mid-management positions....are they elitists? Because I don’t know a single one of these types of people who didn’t have to bust their tails to get where they are at some point.
 

Huntn

macrumors demi-god
May 5, 2008
16,866
15,951
0
The Misty Mountains
The Supreme Leader/GOP Jobs Plan... fool’d ya! Ha-ha-ha. On MSNBC tonight , the highest paid worker at the closed plant who is getting pink slip, sardonically touted his tax cut, yea, I’ll pay basically no taxes next year.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax-buyback-kansas-city-factory

In September 2017, House Speaker Paul Ryan traveled to a Harley-Davidson plant in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, to tout the Republican tax bill, which President Trump would sign later that year. “Tax reform can put American manufacturers and American companies like Harley-Davidson on a much better footing to compete in the global economy and keep jobs here in America,” Ryan told workers and company leaders.

Four months later and 500 miles away in Kansas City, Missouri, 800 workers at a Harley-Davidson factory were told they would lose their jobs when the plant closed its doors and shifted operations to a facility in York, Pennsylvania — a net loss of 350 jobs. Workers and union representatives say they didn’t see it coming.

Just days later, the company announced a dividend increase and a stock buybackplan to repurchase 15 million of its shares, valued at about $696 million.
 

duffman9000

macrumors 68000
Sep 7, 2003
1,887
5,320
0
Deep in the Depths of CA
“In September 2017, House Speaker Paul Ryan traveled to a Harley-Davidson plant in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, to tout the Republican tax bill, which President Trump would sign later that year. “Tax reform can put American manufacturers and American companies like Harley-Davidson on a much better footing to compete in the global economy and keep jobs here in America,” Ryan told workers and company leaders.
Four months later and 500 miles away in Kansas City, Missouri, 800 workers at a Harley-Davidson factory were told they would lose their jobs when the plant closed its doors and shifted operations to a facility in York, Pennsylvania a net loss of 350 jobs. Workers and union representatives say they didn’t see it coming.

Just days later, the company announced a dividend increase and a stock buybackplan to repurchase 15 million of its shares, valued at about $696 million.“


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax-buyback-kansas-city-factory
The tax cuts weren't enough. Taxes are still > 0. Only after we start subsidizing companies will they stop complaining about taxes.
 

Snoopy4

macrumors 6502a
Dec 29, 2014
661
2,920
0
The Supreme Leader/GOP Jobs Plan... fool’d ya! Ha-ha-ha. On MSNBC tonight , the highest paid worker at the closed plant who is getting pink slip, sardonically touted his tax cut, yea, I’ll pay basically no taxes next year.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax-buyback-kansas-city-factory

In September 2017, House Speaker Paul Ryan traveled to a Harley-Davidson plant in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, to tout the Republican tax bill, which President Trump would sign later that year. “Tax reform can put American manufacturers and American companies like Harley-Davidson on a much better footing to compete in the global economy and keep jobs here in America,” Ryan told workers and company leaders.

Four months later and 500 miles away in Kansas City, Missouri, 800 workers at a Harley-Davidson factory were told they would lose their jobs when the plant closed its doors and shifted operations to a facility in York, Pennsylvania — a net loss of 350 jobs. Workers and union representatives say they didn’t see it coming.

Just days later, the company announced a dividend increase and a stock buybackplan to repurchase 15 million of its shares, valued at about $696 million.
Meh. Kansas City.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68020
Jan 31, 2015
2,323
7,588
0
Boston
I’m an a HOG shareholder. Have you seen their stock lately? It crashed nearly 30% since January. $55/share to $40. I’m not really sure how rewarded I feel... a 0.37 dividend doesn’t quite make up for the massive $15/share loss. (granted I’ve had this stock since the 90’s so I can’t complain too much).

At least they’ve transferred the workload to their other US facilities rather than shipping production elsewhere. Unfortunately if business tanks, sacrifices must be made. Hopefully the stock buyback and dividends benefit the people who lost their jobs.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68020
Jan 31, 2015
2,323
7,588
0
Boston
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
What? No Harley employees have stock options... I find that hard to believe.

(I say the original statement half in jest, half not. Cause we’re all getting super rich of $0.37 dividends after the stock tanks $15... but for those employees with options, they have the option to sell or hold and hopefully the stock price is salvaged from where it could be, even lower). It’s one thing to lose your job, it’s another to lose your job and have the stock you earned also be worthless.

I have to imagine Vox can do better finding an example of corporate greed than this BS story. They’re trying to conjure this story into something newsworthy when it really isn’t. It seems to me the more accurate story would be evidently the tax cuts weren’t enough to help HOG.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BeeGood

Zenithal

macrumors G3
Sep 10, 2009
8,889
9,999
0
It's a combination of a lot of issues. Harley's quality has gone down the gutter over the last few decades. This isn't surprising at all. Their employees could probably find another job in the industry or pray.
 

Zenithal

macrumors G3
Sep 10, 2009
8,889
9,999
0
The White House recently published a letter from a mid-westerner about her family, specifically her husband. The math didn't add up in the letter. New lows.
 

Huntn

macrumors demi-god
May 5, 2008
16,866
15,951
0
The Misty Mountains
I’m an a HOG shareholder. Have you seen their stock lately? It crashed nearly 30% since January. $55/share to $40. I’m not really sure how rewarded I feel... a 0.37 dividend doesn’t quite make up for the massive $15/share loss. (granted I’ve had this stock since the 90’s so I can’t complain too much).

At least they’ve transferred the workload to their other US facilities rather than shipping production elsewhere. Unfortunately if business tanks, sacrifices must be made. Hopefully the stock buyback and dividends benefit the people who lost their jobs.
Actually they have moved production out of the country with this closure. And my point is and always has been that the Tax Cut as part of the Trump, Make America Great Again, we are going to bring back your jobs scam, is populist fodder for the gullible. Throwing money at corporations is not a strategy to bring back jobs while destroying tax revenues, a long time play of the GOP, and like trickle down is designed for the segment of society whose teat upon which the GOP is constantly suckling.

Welfare for the rich and corporatists with absolutely no strings, or requirements that they change their behavior in any way. You want to give corporations tax dollars indescriminately? Don’t drape it with a jobs label. Those are still heading out of the country. If they want to make a globalization argument, don’t instead tell people this will bring their jobs back, they have to come up with a real jobs plan, not corporatist BS to, fool some of us, unfortunately too many of us are fooled by these platitudes. Talk about fool’d it’s the only explanation the GOP exists today and I’m not sure who I should be more mad at, the bankrupt GOP or the selfish and/or gullible enablers.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax-buyback-kansas-city-factory
The tax cuts aren’t saving jobs at Harley-Davidson
It wasn’t just Ryan who made promises to Harley-Davidson. Trump in February 2017 met with Harley-Davidson executives and union representatives at the White House. He thanked the company for building in America and predicted its operations would grow.

“I think you’re going to even expand — I know your business is now doing very well, and there’s a lot of spirit right now in the country that you weren’t having so much in the last number of months that you have right now,” Trump said. He added that impending changes to “taxing policies,” health care, tariffs, and trade would only make things better.
 

A.Goldberg

macrumors 68020
Jan 31, 2015
2,323
7,588
0
Boston
Actually they have moved production out of the country with this closure. And my point is and always has been that the Tax Cut as part of the Trump, Make America Great Again, we are going to bring back your jobs scam, is populist fodder for the gullible. Throwing money at corporations is not a strategy to bring back jobs while destroying tax revenues, a long time play of the GOP, and like trickle down is designed for the segment of society whose teat upon which the GOP is constantly suckling.

Welfare for the rich and corporatists with absolutely no strings, or requirements that they change their behavior in any way. You want to give corporations tax dollars indescriminately? Don’t drape it with a jobs label. Those are still heading out of the country. If they want to make a globalization argument, don’t instead tell people this will bring their jobs back, they have to come up with a real jobs plan, not corporatist BS to, fool some of us, unfortunately too many of us are fooled by these platitudes. Talk about fool’d it’s the only explanation the GOP exists today and I’m not sure who I should be more mad at, the bankrupt GOP or the selfish and/or gullible enablers.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/22/17350180/harley-davidson-tax-buyback-kansas-city-factory
The tax cuts aren’t saving jobs at Harley-Davidson
It wasn’t just Ryan who made promises to Harley-Davidson. Trump in February 2017 met with Harley-Davidson executives and union representatives at the White House. He thanked the company for building in America and predicted its operations would grow.

“I think you’re going to even expand — I know your business is now doing very well, and there’s a lot of spirit right now in the country that you weren’t having so much in the last number of months that you have right now,” Trump said. He added that impending changes to “taxing policies,” health care, tariffs, and trade would only make things better.
Sure, corporate welfare in the form of tax cuts isn’t enough to save every struggling company. Let’s look at Vox’s buried realistic statements

“Woolf, the analyst, said he wasn’t sure that was the case. “I think what this reflects is that they’re finally coming to grips with the fact that the US market is contracting,” he said. Harley-Davidson has been struggling in recent years — sales have declined as its core demographic, baby boomers, ages and as millennials shy away from big bikes. The decline has been particularly acute in the US: Harley-Davidson’s motorcycle salesdeclined 8.5 percent in the United States in 2017 and 3.9 percent abroad.”

No amount of tax cuts are going to save a company that’s failing to sell their product. I suppose they could be in a worse situation laying off all 850 people instead of 350.

Keep in mind HOG has also been affected by Trump’s silly trade war. They are failing to attract younger buyers, particularly in the US. Trump and Ryan were stupid to say HOG would rebound with tax breaks, unfortunately their problems are much deeper that something that could be rectified with a tax break.
 

s2mikey

macrumors 68020
Sep 23, 2013
2,462
2,516
0
Upstate, NY
Trump is an absolute tool bag, but I’d much rather live in his America than the one you’re describing. Lots of people share this sentiment.

Just something to keep in mind the next time a socialist gains a large chunk of support on the democratic ticket.
Yeah, no kidding. Geeshus Crust.... :rolleyes:
 

0007776

Suspended
Jul 11, 2006
6,474
8,051
0
Somewhere
That's absurd. $100k is a colossal amount of money.
Not really. Lets say you are a single parent in San Francisco making a $100,000 a year salary. After taxes you will have $69,024 in take home pay. Average rent for a two bedroom apartment so you and your child can each have your own room is $4,453 a month for a total of $53,436 a year leaving you with $15,588. Average cost for child care for your child in San Francisco is $1,900 a month for a total of $22,800 a year leaving you $7,212 in the hole and that is even before you account for food, clothes, transportation, or anything else.
 

lowendlinux

Contributor
Sep 24, 2014
5,150
6,299
0
North Country (way upstate NY)
Sure, corporate welfare in the form of tax cuts isn’t enough to save every struggling company. Let’s look at Vox’s buried realistic statements

“Woolf, the analyst, said he wasn’t sure that was the case. “I think what this reflects is that they’re finally coming to grips with the fact that the US market is contracting,” he said. Harley-Davidson has been struggling in recent years — sales have declined as its core demographic, baby boomers, ages and as millennials shy away from big bikes. The decline has been particularly acute in the US: Harley-Davidson’s motorcycle salesdeclined 8.5 percent in the United States in 2017 and 3.9 percent abroad.”

No amount of tax cuts are going to save a company that’s failing to sell their product. I suppose they could be in a worse situation laying off all 850 people instead of 350.

Keep in mind HOG has also been affected by Trump’s silly trade war. They are failing to attract younger buyers, particularly in the US. Trump and Ryan were stupid to say HOG would rebound with tax breaks, unfortunately their problems are much deeper that something that could be rectified with a tax break.
This demo is what the foreign produced street series is aimed at they're less expensive, smaller, and more modern.
===
I do think Harley will be fine but they're going to have to shrink a bit before they come back. There will always be a market for specialty / unique bikes heck Moto Guzzi still exists :D
 

dogslobber

macrumors 68040
Oct 19, 2014
3,450
4,550
0
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
www.apple.com
Not really. Lets say you are a single parent in San Francisco making a $100,000 a year salary. After taxes you will have $69,024 in take home pay. Average rent for a two bedroom apartment so you and your child can each have your own room is $4,453 a month for a total of $53,436 a year leaving you with $15,588. Average cost for child care for your child in San Francisco is $1,900 a month for a total of $22,800 a year leaving you $7,212 in the hole and that is even before you account for food, clothes, transportation, or anything else.
Those are all outgoings so are irrelevant and it's why federal taxes generally don't (and shouldn't) consider your outgoings either. $100k in a suitcase is a lot of money in absolute terms. How you spend it is the individual's problem. As I offered previously, a super tax on each marginal dollar over $100k will soon normalize cost of living differences if that's important to you. It's not important to me.

For taxable income, I'd also include under the table income from stock profit and equity grants. These are all vehicles to defraud the working class in America.
[doublepost=1527099228][/doublepost]
This doesn’t map onto reality at all.

Do you believe that John McCain is “for Trump”? What about a registered Republican who voted third party and has never supported Trump?
McCain didn't vote for Trump in 2016. There are few Republican senators who have integrity as they're mostly Trump puppets.

That’s ridiculous.

If socialism was so engrained into humans, why does it always have to be forced onto everyone? Why has it so often lead to totalitarianism?

Believing that one should be responsible for his own standard of living (with a few exceptions) doesn’t make you a loner. It makes you a non-leach and you’ll probably get more friends that way.
You can claim it's 'ridiculous' but look around the world and you will see socialism everywhere. Claiming 'leaches' causes your mask to slip. You'll die lonely.
 

0007776

Suspended
Jul 11, 2006
6,474
8,051
0
Somewhere
Those are all outgoings so are irrelevant and it's why federal taxes generally don't (and shouldn't) consider your outgoings either. $100k in a suitcase is a lot of money in absolute terms.
It's not pocket change by any means, but it is not enough to live off of in may parts of the country as is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Eraserhead