"Taxation is theft"

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by thermodynamic, May 11, 2016.

  1. thermodynamic, May 11, 2016
    Last edited: May 11, 2016

    thermodynamic Suspended

    thermodynamic

    Joined:
    May 3, 2009
    Location:
    USA
    #1
    I've seen that quote frequently, lately. Though the people who say it never really go into detail, believing that three words is really that simple.

    Is it?

    So, what else is theft?

    1. corporate welfare
    2. driving down our wages since our wages are taxed and without labor the 1% wouldn't have gotten there to begin with
    3. using services paid for by taxes, such as roads, police, military
    4. using products paid for by taxes, such as memory foam, transitioning lenses, velcro, and other items
    5. using products or services by companies that receive corporate welfare

    Anything else? These 5 bulletpoints barely discuss issues, despite clearly showing those three little words are as empty and loaded with bull as it gets.

    Are Americans really incapable of putting out more than three word phrases nowadays?

    But to anyone who has used those three words, if you're using anything from options 3-5, please put your money where your mouth is and leave this country and find a better country that won't take taxes but will protect you that you can use. You'll be wanting to come back very quickly, I suspect, not because you won't be able to leech for too long...
     
  2. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Location:
    The Far Horizon
    #2
    Well, I think the next step (and we are seeing it with ugly weasel words and distorted language such as 'zero hours contracts' and internships), is a marked preference for not paying wages at all, as money paid in wages could be far more profitably deployed elsewhere.

    Let us say that their ideal is a return to serfdom…….where both taxes and wages are unnecessary and the poor are punished for being poor, and doubly punished if they have the temerity to seek change.
     
  3. juanm, May 12, 2016
    Last edited: May 12, 2016

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Location:
    Fury 161
    #3
    Add to that the ever growing threat of complete automation looming not so far away, that could make humans pretty much redundant in most (like in, 9 out of 10) positions. Yes, the future looks grim.
     
  4. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    #4
    Taxation is theft. The mob rules though, so as long as you have the majority voting to steal from the people to fund bloat and waste for a little bit of trickle down social welfare... there isn't much a person can do about it.
     
  5. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Location:
    Fury 161
    #5
    Taxation is not theft, as long as you agree to it*, and you get your money's worth in services.

    *Hobson's choice.
     
  6. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #6
    This meme has been popping up all over, and it's the Libertarian mindset at work.

    Basically boils down to, if you do enough digging, "I'm all set, so **** everyone else and there is no such thing as society".

    It's a mix of Rand, Thatcher, and Reagan mentalities, and almost never thought through at all.
     
  7. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

    Joined:
    May 1, 2006
    Location:
    Fury 161
    #7
    And denial. Don't forget denial.
     
  8. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    #8
    Incorrectly boiled down but you gave it your best effort. You still get a trophy for trying.
     
  9. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #9
    Please, enlighten us with your worldview.
     
  10. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #10
    I think the problem is our political discourse in this country has deteriorated to 30 second soundbites and memes. You can't explain why taxes are needed in that space, or any other important issue for that matter. And attempts to do so just come across as rude and condescending if you don't agree with them and just reinforce people's beliefs that the other side is evil.

    So if you are saying that taxation is theft, then do you use roads, police, fire, and EMS services? Those things are all paid for by taxes. Also public education, which is paid for by taxes, has given huge benefits to the country. Even if you went to a private school you benefited from public education because likely some of your teachers went through the public school system, also the fact that this country has an educated workforce meant that many extra services were available to you that wouldn't have been otherwise. Also the computer that you used to type this post may have come from a private company, but the research that made those computers possible was publicly funded through taxes, the same thing with the internet, while your ISP is a private company, the initial research that created the internet was done by the government and funded by taxes. Would you be willing to give up all of that to not have taxes?

    It is interesting to see how the original argument of the founding fathers of no taxation without representation has now been shortened to no taxation. We have representation, but it is up to the people who want no taxes or lower taxes to find ways to keep society functioning without them or at least convince people that a non functioning society is better as long as it doesn't have taxes. So far the policies from the right have been to borrow money to cut taxes, and while that has worked ok in the short term, we can't keep relying on borrowing to fund the US. We will either have to decide to let our infrastructure deteriorate to third world levels, or decide that it is time to raise taxes and pay for what we need to maintain our western lifestyle.
     
  11. ericgtr12 macrumors 6502a

    ericgtr12

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2015
    #11
    On their way to an anti-Government rally no doubt.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Praxis91 macrumors regular

    Praxis91

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    #12
    Taxation is theft because you have no say in how much money is taken and where it goes. If you refuse, the state will send men with guns to take it.
     
  13. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #13
    Source?

    Do you think the US constitution set up "theft"?
     
  14. ericgtr12 macrumors 6502a

    ericgtr12

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2015
    #14
    Actually, if you vote, you have a say.

    More likely they'll fine you and garnish your wages.
     
  15. tgara macrumors 6502a

    tgara

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2012
    Location:
    Somewhere in the Delta Quadrant
    #15
    I think we have to be a bit more precise in what we mean by theft, and where the collected taxes go.

    No rational person believes that all taxes should be eliminated. Obviously public services like road upkeep, police, fire, EMS as mrkramer indicated are necessary for a functioning society, and taxation is the way to pay for them. I don't think anyone would dispute that. Where it breaks down, however, is when those taxes are used essentially as transfer payments to others. Corporate welfare, farm subsidies, food stamps, and the like are examples of that. It turns into theft when the law takes from some persons what belongs to them and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. So the question to as is if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what that citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime.
     
  16. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #16
    Get out and vote, or run for office. You have a say in both how much is taken, and where it goes. The original argument of the founding fathers was no taxation without representation. They fought a war over that and then set up they system we have now so that the people have representation and get a say over taxes. To say otherwise shows either that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of our political system and history, or just a lack of respect for our system and the people that fought and died to create it.
     
  17. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    #17
    I never said I was against the theft. My favorite theft is when old people retire on a fixed income but get fleeced by the school district with increases in property taxes. Steal from them (I mean tax them) until they can no longer afford it then take their house and auction it off.

    How dare those people be old, retired, and on fixed incomes... Don't they know that kids need to learn common core and teachers need raises. They better get on the corner and start hustlin or slingin...
     
  18. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Location:
    Scotland
    #18
    In the US and UK, taxation is the outcome of a democratic process and it certainly beats the alternative: class war in which nobody would win.
     
  19. Plutonius macrumors 603

    Plutonius

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2003
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    #19
    I think that is many people's basic complaint about taxes. Getting their moneys worth in services. Since so many people don't pay taxes or pay little taxes, the ones that do pay taxes rarely see their moneys worth.
     
  20. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #20
    There is a bit more of a valid argument there, but go back and look at the history of why those programs were put in place. For example with farm subsidies the Great Depression was causing a collapse of food prices, which was making farmers sell at a loss, without them we would have seen even more farms fail and more instability in food prices. Everyone benefits from stable food prices, and while the program probably could be reformed to focus on healthier crops than corn, it does a good job of keeping prices stable for everyone. And for food stamps, again there might be room to reform the program, but there are huge benefits to society by not having people starving in the streets, and the private sector would not be able to take their place if the program was eliminated.
     
  21. bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    #21
    People who use this phrase don't understand the meanings of the words they are trying to use.

    Theft implies unlawful activity. Taxation is 100% legal in the U.S., and (as previously stated) is the result of a democratic process.

    So, NO, Taxation is not theft under any known definition in the English language. The idea that "taxation is theft" does not hold up under even the most cursory logical examination.
     
  22. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    #22
    That is kind of the point. The majority agrees that it is not theft so they can steal as much as they want.
     
  23. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #23
    I was absolutely shocked that large corporation engaged in less than slave wages* employment.
    *Slaves are fed and housed, lol. ;)

    Capitalism looks grim. In this regard Socialism appears to be the only way forward, but it will require no tolerance for corruption.

    Please say something that indicates you have the slightest understanding of how a functional society works. :rolleyes:
     
  24. bent christian, May 12, 2016
    Last edited: May 12, 2016

    bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    #24
    To steal also implies unlawful activity. At the very least, when you talk about taxation as "stealing", you are talking about something government is not supposed to have. This definition of the word does not fit, either. Government is entitled to tax money under our system of liberal democracy. It is hard to believe this idea is up for debate among grown adults who presumably have graduated high school (though maybe not).

    Democracy is not for everyone - the Right-wing in particular. Perhaps it is not for you. It is unfortunate that you don't like the outcome, but taxation is not "theft" and it is not "stealing" under any know definition in the English language.
     
  25. tunerX Suspended

    tunerX

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    #25
    That is kind of the point. The majority agrees that it is not theft so they can steal as much as they want.
     

Share This Page