The American Capitalist Ideal

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by ForkHandles, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. ForkHandles macrumors regular

    ForkHandles

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    #1
    The US and Europe both rely on capitalism as a means of distribution. The difference being that most European countries have elements of a more socialistic outlook.
    By that I mean that European countries recognise that there are certain industries and practices that are better run by 'The People' than they are by individuals for personal gain.

    The US people come across of reviling any act by the people that seek to compete or impede individual rights.

    As an example, many countries here have a state funded health system. It means that old or young, rich or poor we all get access to the same level of health care. Whereas, as I understand it, healthcare is very much dependent on means in the US.

    So my question is: By what means of social engineering do Americans, largely believe that The People, acting for the good of The People is inherently bad?

    I ask this as many posts I see in these forums use 'left wing' or 'Socialist' in a very derogatory manner. Almost as if they believe that the market is king and the health and well being of the people is secondary.
     
  2. Admiral macrumors regular

    Admiral

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    #2
    We admit that the free market, being a product of human free choice, is a law of nature. Does gravity have a moral component?
     
  3. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #3
    That makes no sense...
     
  4. WarHeadz, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016

    WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #4
    Not all of us are like that. It's just our right wing has moved even further to the right in the last decade and when they attempt to use words like "left wing" or "liberal" or "socialist" in a deragatory way I just laugh because I don't find those terms offensive, I can own them. You would also be surprised that for the first time ever the majority of Americans are in favor of "socialist" universal healthcare and that self described "socialist" Bernie Sanders has a double digit lead over Donald Trump in the national polls. We're getting better, and we're doing our best to keep the far right in its place and as far from public office as possible. The way our right wing forum members portray their ideology you would think they make up a majority of Americans, but they don't. It's kind of like when you encounter a bear in the woods and you're told to put your hands up in the air and try to make yourself appear larger than you are to hopefully scare the bear away. That's what conservatives do, they talk up a huge game and try to make themselves seem like a majority and portray themselves as the only "real Americans" in hopes they'll scare away and demoralize liberals and make them not bother to vote, but they know they're actually outnumbered and are about to lose their third national election in a row.
     
  5. lowendlinux, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016

    lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #5
    Perhaps many Americans don't want to be like Europe??

    Perhaps many Americans value individualism over collectivism??

    Perhaps our country is still being run by the "me" generation??

    Perhaps many are looking back on the past with only memories of the good??

    We're at a crossroads for now our collective conscience will change it always does when the "new" takes over but there are still many of the old hanging out.
     
  6. Admiral, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016

    Admiral macrumors regular

    Admiral

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    #6
    I'm guessing you're about 25 years old, then, and ill-read. The "right wing" has surrendered on welfare, Medicare, Social Security, food stamps, illegal immigration, abortion, etc., ad nauseam — and we've somehow moved further to the right. Dubya excused 20% more Americans from having to pay income taxes. Meanwhile, the Communist Party of the USA has endorsed the Democratic Party platform as being all they ever dreamed of achieving, and an open communist (oh right, "democratic socialist") vies to take the reins of the Democratic party. Sure thing, kiddo. It's us.
     
  7. WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #7
    Oh look, more buzz words! @ForkHandles this is what I was talking about. Thanks admiral for your contribution to my point.
     
  8. Admiral macrumors regular

    Admiral

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    #8
    But seriously, kid: How old are you?
     
  9. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #9
    Being older doesn't make you wiser...

    I know at least one person who is more mature than their mother and grandfather.
     
  10. WarHeadz, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016

    WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #10
    @ForkHandles , as you can see his buzz word attempts failed in the last post when he attempted to launch his secret weapon buzz word "communist". When there was no reaction to that our specimen moved on to his next strategy, attempts at demoralization and personal attacks. Notice his use of the word "kid" to describe his opponent. Absolutely fascinating. Once again, thank you for your contributions admiral.
     
  11. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    Because some people in the U.S. have been brainwashed to think that every man for himself is the way to be, and screw those who can't help themselves -- and the gov't helping people is bad. So they throw labels at it like "socialism". That scares the uneducated masses, because when they hear a word with "ism" on the end, they combine it all in their mind with fascISM, communISM, etc. There is a history of anti-intellectualism in this country, so nuanced understanding is not the strong suit here, unfortunately. Its easy to sway the masses with scary words.

    Also, the image portrayed on TV of those receiving help from the gov't is typically the urban African American. Since they don't look like the trailer park Caucasian folks in the vast middle of the country (who actually receive more federal dollars than anyone), its scary to them to allow more gov't help. They think that help goes to the "other".

    So they get suckered into thinking corporate welfare and helping corporations, the military and the wealthy is better than helping people. Its a sad state of affairs, I grant you. I'm sure the rest of the world laughs at us -- we who have flushed down the drain the concept of: "gov't of the people, by the people and for the people".

    The people don't matter anymore. For example - take the minimum wage law. Its ridiculously low. It wouldn't hurt me, you or anyone other than some fast food franchise owners and the like to raise it (and they can compensate by raising prices a nickel, which no one would care about). So for some reason, rich folks who will never hold a minimum wage job, refuse to allow the minimum wage law to be changed. why? I dunno. It makes no sense. What do they care -- it won't affect them or hurt anyone. They just like to keep other people down I guess.
     
  12. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #12
    So much hyperbole, I don't even know where to start.

    Truth is, some of us know the USA can't afford some of the stuff people are talking about these days. One only has to look at the Euro financial situation to see that the USA wouldn't be far behind if we tried to implement socialized medicine.

    We need to control costs (I sit on the front lines of this every single day as the ER's are filled with folks who'd rather have Medicaid pay many times more for their sore throat visit to the ED rather than wait for a visit with their PCP. And while those ED physicians are forced to practice defensive medicine and over order tests and scans in an effort to protect themselves against liability in the inevitable lawsuits. Yes I've literally had attending physicians in the ED tell me that I needed to imagine my visit note being read in front of a jury, and make sure I left no stone unturned just in case.

    We spend inordinate amounts of money this way. I see it first hand.

    Socialized medicine does nothing to cut costs, reforming the way medicine is practiced can though.
     
  13. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #13
    So can controlling the cost of the education, controlling how much insurance can make, controlling how much if anything can be won in malpractice suit, controlling drug development by pushing some back onto the governments hand and research institutions.
     
  14. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #14
    European socialised medicine is cheaper...
     
  15. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #15
    I wouldn't necessarily be so in the states though without control of the whole stack.
     
  16. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #16
    Has nothing to do with us being more "socialist", but all with the lack of a real EU-goverment and the mishandling of the banking crisisand it's aftermath.

    Now add cultural differences and local politicians just trying to kick the ball past the next election (there is allways some election going on in the EU) and get a desater.
     
  17. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #17
    Neither does the notion of letting the "free market" make life and death decisions, which is what I believe that user was trying to say.
     
  18. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    We pay more than many European countries for things like health, child care and other benefits - -because we pay more of it out of pocket. So we don't call it a tax, since we pay a lot on our own. But if we combined resources together and made it a program, it would end up being less expensive for most.

    So this fear of costs you raise is misplaced. None of the stuff you raise about defensive medicine or sore throat visits means that universal healthcare with a single payor can't work here. If it can work elsewhere it can work here. Anything else is just FUD. People are scared of change. Right now the health insurers get rich - -that's it.

    Look, no one here is an economist working for the U.S. Gov't. The fact is, the people who do this stuff for a living say there are ways to make this work economically. So why not give it a go? If it fails so horribly -- we'll change it back to the health insurers getting rich. Okay? Geez. So many people scared of change - waah waah, I like things the way they are, even if they stink.
     
  19. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #19
    The United States would never allow bureaucrats in Venezuela dictate which bananas can be sold in Twisp, Washington. Europeans would be fine with it.
     
  20. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #20
    Why do you think we pay more than Europe for our healthcare?

    And can you name a single government run program that's cheaper and as high or higher quality than the private counterpart?
     
  21. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    If you add up all you spend out of pocket for things that are covered in "socialist" countries, we pay more.
     
  22. bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

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    #22
    The U.S. has an almost wholly private delivery system of care with next to no cost controls.
     
  23. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #23
    Well, considering the fact that the US is the only 1st world country without UHC, that's a pretty easy comparison to make.

    There's no arguing that we offer some very high quality healthcare, and we do have our advantages. But we do spend more on average, and don't maintain such a massive lead on that front that it can be justified across the board.
     
  24. bent christian Suspended

    bent christian

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    #24
    Fire departments.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 6, 2016 ---
    In many areas we do not lead at all.
     
  25. maxsix Suspended

    maxsix

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    #25
    I wonder if Hussein actually understands the meaning of the words American and Capitalist.
     

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