The Assassination Complex: 90% of Obama's drone kills are innocent civilians and bystanders

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, May 20, 2016.

  1. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #51
    Most egregious was the hospital strike, killing patients on the mend, along with Doctors Without Lives.
     
  2. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #52
    Republican president? A war crime. Obama? A strong leader.
     
  3. Jess13, May 21, 2016
    Last edited: May 21, 2016

    Jess13 Suspended

    Jess13

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    #53
    Nothing says fake war on terror like intentionally targeting and murdering children.


    Exclusive: Air Force Whistleblowers Risk Prosecution to Warn Drone War Kills Civilians, Fuels Terror

    http://www.democracynow.org/2015/11/20/exclusive_air_force_whistleblowers_risk_prosecution

    JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Michael Haas, I wanted to ask you, in terms of your experience in the drone program and the culture that the military basically allowed to flourish in the drone program, you’ve talked about how your fellow servicemembers talked about the children that they were targeting, as well.

    MICHAEL HAAS: Yes, the term "fun-sized terrorists" was used to just sort of denote children that we’d see on screen.

    AMY GOODMAN: What was it?

    MICHAEL HAAS: "Fun-sized terrorists."

    AMY GOODMAN: "Fun-sized terrorists"?

    MICHAEL HAAS: Yes. Other terms we’d use would be "cutting the grass before it grows too long," just doing whatever you can to try to make it easier to kill whatever’s on screen. And the culture is—that mentality is very much nurtured within the drone community, because these—every Hellfire shot is sort of lauded and applauded, and we don’t really examine who exactly was killed, but just that it was an effective shot and the missile hit its target.


    If you haven’t read this, you should.


    THE DRONE PAPERS

    https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/

    The Intercept has obtained a cache of secret documents detailing the inner workings of the U.S. military’s assassination program in Afghanistan, Yemen, and Somalia. The documents, provided by a whistleblower, offer an unprecedented glimpse into Obama’s drone wars.

    Warbama signs off on all drone targets. He’s a terrorist, he’s a mass murdering war criminal. ADX Florence is where he belongs, with other terrorists and USA hating, anti-American traitors, of which he is both.


    Inside America’s Toughest Federal Prison

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/inside-americas-toughest-federal-prison.html

    For years, conditions inside the United States’ only federal supermax facility were largely a mystery. But a landmark lawsuit is finally revealing the harsh world within.​
     
  4. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #54
    How about we at least review what we actually do know from primary sources?

    https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/
    --- Post Merged, May 22, 2016 ---
    Holy ****, that is the most short sighted imperialist passage I've seen on here in a long time.

    Reminiscent of Robert Gibbs callousness in murdering an American teenager: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/24/robert-gibbs-anwar-al-awlaki_n_2012438.html
     
  5. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #55
    Glad not all liberals feel the same way
     
  6. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #56
    No.

    In fact its the opposite of imperialism. I expect the people of Afghanistan; Pakistan; Yemen; Syria etc. to fix their own societies. I don't believe it is the job of the American taxpayer and the US military to go in and build civil societies in places like that.

    I think the United States, along with most of the developed world, international organizations, NGOs, charities are more than willing to lend a hand. Generous grants of aid; training; medical and educational resources. Assistance in establishing corruption-free and professional military forces; law enforcement; judges and courts.

    But the ultimate responsibility for creating a nation state that doesn't export radical terrorism lies with the people of those countries. And if they fail to do so; and in fact harbor such criminals within their communities - then I'm very sorry, but they will inevitably suffer some of the consequences.
     
  7. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #57
    But until they build their nation to the liking of the West (meaning open those markets up baby) bombs away.
     
  8. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #58
    I think the biggest problem is that this is a hard problem, and I have no issue with tackling it differently - if that different approach would be better.

    Another hard problem as an example is how to deal with poor performing public sector staff.

    I do think with hard problems sometimes we have to leave some of our ideals on the table otherwise they can't be tackled. And hard problems matter.

    The question isn't whether they like us, its whether the state is strong enough to deal with problems. I think you could trust Russia to catch Osama Bin Laden, Pakistan, not so much.
     
  9. Jess13 Suspended

    Jess13

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    #59
    If the narrative presented by Seymour Hersh is correct, it was Pakistan that did capture him.


     
  10. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #60
    Obama's Afghanistan policy is a complete and utter failure: government forces are attacking insurgent groups, government forces are attacking government forces, and insurgent groups are attacking insurgent groups. Total chaos and like Iraq, North Korea, Syria, Russia, etc the situation/relations are far worse than was when Obama took over. Obama is the reverse Midas: everything he touches turns to ****.

    It's time to let Muslim nations create their own history. Obama's drones, dropping freedom bombs and fueled with noble intentions, can't make and egg out of an omelet (or any other metaphor you care to use.)
     
  11. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #61
    Seems like a giant conspiracy theory to me...
    --- Post Merged, May 22, 2016 ---
    What I'd do in Afghanistan would be to get the Chinese to build a road/railway to the border, and from there to Kabul and then let capitalism win.
     
  12. Jess13 Suspended

    Jess13

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    #62
    I never tire of laughing at those who have no idea what they’re talking about, throw around the term ‘conspiracy theory’ as though simply doing so somehow automatically negates or disproves what it being said or presented to them. News flash — it doesn’t. I know, it takes effort to actually read detailed pieces of information to have a more informed opinion, but you should at least give it a try. See the link above.
     
  13. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #63
    Not a bad idea as Afghans of all ethnicities are very mercantile. However, infrastructure is a lost cause unless there is some sort of peace settlement. For example, when I was over there last the Taliban controled the Afghan cell network and only allowed it to operate when they approved. They could sabotage a road faster than it could be built.
     
  14. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #64
    This road would only need to go through the peaceful north to Kabul though.
     
  15. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #65
    For some strange reason there has been no mention of the strike this weekend that apparently killed Mullah Akhtar Muhammad Mansour.

    The strike targeted Mansour as he travelled in a vehicle in Baluchistan, a remote tribal area of Pakistan. According to reports, the strike killed both Mansour and his driver, with no other collateral casualties.

    I'm not going to kid myself that killing a single individual is going to over-night bring peace and stability to Afghanistan. And I don't think we should overlook the issue of the violation of Pakistan's sovereignty raised by that country in response to the strike.

    But any discussion of the costs of a targeted drone program really needs also to consider the benefits. Because I think its pretty clear than Mansour was not only directing attacks on US and Afghan government targets, he was also coordinating efforts to prevent elements within the Taliban itself to enter into peace talks with the Afghan Government.

    I also don't see any other practical method for the US to remove and/or apprehend individuals like Mansour. We cannot legally, or practically, station teams of special forces troops inside Pakistan itself. The Pakistan government has little, if any, real control over tribal areas such as Baluchistan.

    If not targeted drone strikes, how are we to proceed? Should we simply ignore the problem, and let violent Taliban extremists such as Mansour operate with impunity from safe havens in Pakistan. And then sit back in impotent frustration as they rebuild the sort of failed nation state that gave refuge to Osama bin Laden - only this time harboring the even more toxic extremists of ISIL?
     
  16. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #66
    Obama bin Laden might disagree with you.

    Why is that our problem?
     
  17. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #67
    So it would be better if Obama did nothing and then got excoriated by the right and people like you for letting terrorists off easy. Or should he put 50,000 troops on the ground in Afghanistan and spend trillions?

    Do you think that Obama is sitting there instructing the Drone guys when and how to pull the trigger and purposefully aiming at civilians?
     
  18. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #68
    Man you really don't know how we do things. We have special forces in over 150 countries, and we get them anywhere we feel the need to place them (with or without cooperation).

    We are literally waging covert war activities in nearly every country on the planet.

    http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175945/tomgram:_nick_turse,_a_shadow_war_in_150_countries/

    Learn2Empire :p
     
  19. Mousse, May 23, 2016
    Last edited: May 23, 2016

    Mousse macrumors 68020

    Mousse

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    #69
    So, when 'Murica kills foreigners in their own countries, it's call war. When they kill us in our country, it's called terrorism. Gotta love the double standards.:rolleyes:

    Killing non-combatants is murder no matter how you slice it. They can kill insurgents wholesale and I'd say bravo; serves 'em right. But killing civilians and innocent by-standers, that murder.
     
  20. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #70
    I have hard time taking the #notclinton crowd seriously on this issue, considering that her major counterweight comes from the Republicans, currently led by Donald Trump who promised to "bomb the ****" out of ISIS, and guys like Dick Cheney, who would happily use drones for people they couldn't torture at an illegal black site.

    And, if we're going to use drone strikes as a cudgel against Clinton, let's make sure that it also stains the reputation of Congressional leaders, who have failed to argue against the program despite being briefed daily about its acts and consequences, including House and Senate Republicans.
     
  21. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #71
    So the basis of Obama's drone campaign is nakedly political. That's even worse. The man is a bloodthirsty psychopath.
     
  22. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #72
    Unfortunately, until we address the fact that we are and continue to operate as a hegemonic empire, this is the same political war decision (updated to keep times with the technology) that every administration has had to make going back to FDR.

    Unless we face up to the reality that America's military is structurally set up for empire (mostly at the behest of multinationals with money interests these days) we are never going to be able to get out of this ******** situation.
     
  23. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #73
    How much of the world are we willing to simply cede to organizations like the Taliban?

    This is a group that shot and tried to kill a girl for wanting to go to school. This is a group that harbored the terrorists who pulled off 9/11; the Kohbar Towers bombing; attacked the US embassy in Kenya; and almost sank the USS Stark.

    And that's before we had one special forces operator on the ground in Afghanistan. And before Barack Obama signed off on a single targeted drone strike. Ilf 9/11 taught us anything, its that we cannot simply sit back and pretend that what goes on in backwards countries halfway around the world has no effect on us.

    If you want to argue that we've made mistakes in the War on Terror; dreadfully misguided decisions that ended up becoming highly counterproductive - you'll get no argument from me. Invading Iraq, on grounds that were spurious at best, in 2003 probably counts as the biggest blunder in US foreign policy in the past half century.

    I'm not going to claim that Barack Obama has aced every decision he's made since taking office. But he's made serious progress: The number of US troops stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan has been reduced by literally hundreds of thousands. We've ended torture and secret rendition. We're getting close to closing Guantanamo Bay. We've decapitated what's left of bin Laden's al-Quaeda. The Iraqi Government has finally stood up to take on ISIL. Local Peshmerga forces are pushing back in Syria. And our role in these battles is one that our military can handle. No more stop loss orders. No more endless deployments. No longer are we asking middle-aged moms and dads to spend their National Guard days dodging IEDs in the wastelands of Iraq.

    But I never hear any acknowledgement of those accomplishments, from the raging partisans on the right or the left.
     
  24. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #74
    So he's intentionally killing civilians? I think he saw it as the least horrible of 2 other options: 1. do nothing or 2. 50,000 troops on the ground and spend trillions.

    You really think a Harvard educated, mild mannered intellectual is a "bloodthirsty psychopath"? How much fox news do you watch?
     
  25. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #75
    yeah, god forbid we end the wars......that is never an option to neocons.
     

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