The "Black Jail": ICRC Reports on Secret Military Prison Still in Afghanistan

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mkrishnan, Nov 28, 2009.

  1. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #1
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/world/asia/29bagram.html?_r=1&hp

    This highlights to me how difficult it is to rise back out of a pattern of ignoring the spirit of our laws and freedoms. Once again, this kind of behavior is exactly the sort of wrongdoing of which the United Kingdom was guilty that led to the American Revolution. It is at the very bedrock of our culture to recognize this as wrong. I honestly give President Obama the benefit of the doubt that he has not lost sight of the difference between right and wrong, but this continues to be an extremely dangerous game of pragmatism.
     
  2. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #2
    These camps harbor people who were caught trying to kill us, they aren't US citizens and are not granted the rights of one. Our detention camps would seem like a paradise compared to theirs assuming they don't kill every American they catch.
     
  3. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #3
    That's highly unlikely to be true. I'd expect them to treat Westerners *far* better than we treat them to avoid the outrage they'd get in "the West" if they were tortured.
     
  4. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #4
    We are talking about the people trying to kill US soldiers and not innocent bystanders who get caught in the mix right?

    From what I have seen in the extremists over in the ME, we treat them much better than they treat us if captured.
     
  5. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #5
    A good portion of those in Bagram have done nothing to justify their imprisonment.



    "I think General Stone's report confirms what we have learned over the years from our clients -- most of the people at Bagram are being imprisoned unjustly. General Stone reviewed the military's own records and determined that, of the 600 current detainees at Bagram, there are 400 innocent people that the US government should not be detaining."

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,650324,00.html
     
  6. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #6
    When was General Stone's report made public? :confused: This interview is full of speculation.
     
  7. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #7
    The full contents have not been made public although the NY Times and the WSJ have published bits.People who were briefed by Stone have confirmed he said he believes up to 400 of the 600 detainees are no threat,they of course will not do this on record however there as so many reports of what he said there is not doubt of the truth of it.
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #8
    I just doubted the truth of it, so now there is some.

    Also "no threat" does not mean they are being held for nothing.
     
  9. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #9
    If they have committed crimes under Afghani law why have they not been brought to trial and the evidence produced?
     
  10. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #10
    They are being held by us, not Afghanistan. Why would we leak evidence if it is giving us a tactical advantage on the battlefield?

    Same issue with other non-US terrorists getting citizens trials, they can defend themselves and have access to all kinds of US data that they shouldn't be allowed to mount their case.
     
  11. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #11
    I hope by us you mean the U.S. military,essentially your saying your O.K. with kidnapping,torture and detention of people with no legal process and no oversight because it may give you an advantage on the "battlefield". What is it that distinguishes the U.S. military from the "terrorists"?
     
  12. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #12
    We don't brutally chop their heads off on video to push an agenda.

    Also from the report no one questioned was tortured personally, they only heard people being tortured. This is clearly a psychological tactic for interrogations.
     
  13. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #13
    Or they just weren't prepared to admit they'd been tortured.

    But you do have the death penalty.
     
  14. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #14
    So not different in what they do but different in the style of killing.Well that's O.K. then.
     
  15. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #15
    Highly unlikely.

    Also our death penalty is to revoke people from society who have proven that they cannot abide by their social contract and have destroyed other's chances.

    Oh yes, because sitting someone in a jail cell with one light is killing them.
     
  16. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #16
    Your being disingenuous, whether you die by a sword or a missile or bomb or UAV it is equally barbaric.
     
  17. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #17
    We aren't capturing people to kill them, they are. In fact the only reason we are capturing them is because they are plotting to kill us.
     
  18. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #18
    You have misunderstood the concept of "rights."
     
  19. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #19
    Your trying to split hairs again, the question is who's being killed and who's killing them,as far as I can see both the Taliban (with others) and the U.S. military (with others) are indiscriminately slaughtering people,mainly non combatants. I ask again where is the difference?
     
  20. zap2 macrumors 604

    zap2

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    #20
    I don't disagree with your main point(which I believe to be "killing is wrong"), but to say its all equally barbaric is a little misleading. I would say a serial killer who tortures his victims for weeks slowly and painfully, and an assassin who kill's his victims by painless injections as they sleep are not equally barbaric.


    They are both in the wrong, but not equally so.
     
  21. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #21
    As a very slow reply to the above as well as the following:

    Is it even clear that the Taliban have tortured Westerners?
     
  22. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #22
    No, I haven't. These people have no right to a US civilian trial.
     
  23. mkrishnan thread starter Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #23
    Conservatives are always talking about founder's intent and traditional American values... but this time, it's a liberal saying it. Our country was not founded on this kind of lack of respect for the rule of law. We created our bill of rights because we oppose the concept of tyranny. Opposition of tyranny has always been an American value. And this amounts to tyranny.
     
  24. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #24
    Lets not forget Al-Qaeda.
     
  25. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #25
    Is it even clear that Al-Qaeda have tortured Westerners? In this case I don't count killing Westerners as torture - as the Westerners in Iraq/Afghanistan have killed lots of innocents as well.

    (source) Fair enough.
     

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