The disgrace that is Bush’s Housing Department

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by solvs, Mar 17, 2008.

  1. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #1
    http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14873.html

    More going back here and here.

    What was that our resident troll said about trusting the gov completely?
     
  2. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #2

    You really should stop batting the other side by insulting them. Your action of bashing the other side so heartless instead of debating them has made the other side leave. It is not just you but a lot of very left far left thinkers here who just attack the more moderated and right thinkers to the point they start leaving and no longer take part in politic boards to even leave the forum.

    This is just another tread when you start it out by calling them trolls. And you wonder why they post so angeryly....
     
  3. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #3
    I'm sorry, but I'm with Solvs here. There are things thay you just cannot defend or justify, and you'll recognize a troll when he'll attempt to do it nonetheless. That, or they'll rely on the usual comparison to Clinton.
     
  4. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #4
    I'm with Rodimus here. Starting out calling a right-winger a troll is not in keeping with the goals of a politics forum that should be open and welcoming to different points of view.

    This news stands as a solid indictment and further evidence of what should be rated as one of the worst presidencies in US history. No need for name calling. Stick with the story.
     
  5. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #5
    You won't get much of a dialogue with a preemptive attack. Although I'm not sure who the "very far left thinkers" are that Rodimus Prime is referring to... :confused:
     
  6. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #6
    Even when you're trying a sanctimonious post you can't help yourself. Very far left? Moderated and right thinkers? Culture war labels like those that are exactly the childish and inflammatory actions that are repulsive.

    While I agree that calling one out preemptively isn't the best maneuver to take the high ground with, it's not different points of view that people have a problem with. It's childish behaviour such as calling out people who are on your ignore list, bandying about 'liberals' as a derogatory label, derailing threads with 'how can you all blame bush for this one', not backing up your arguments with evidence, just about any logical fallacy you can name, calling people underage to insult, and just plain paranoia.....the list could go on and on.....

    Although I have to admit things have been a little better lately.
     
  7. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #7
    Please stand to correct me how you are with Sov and his open bashing the Right wing on this one.

    While the article is one thing the opening of the first post is pretty clear. This is not a debate but instead opening with an insult.

    No where did I take a stand on the point.

    I am just getting rather tired of seeing thread after thread start with baiting and insults instead of inviting open debates.
     
  8. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #8
    The person I was referring to just said in another thread that he trusts our gov. I was about to post this anyway when I read what he had written. This is just further proof we shouldn't. Besides which, I'm on his ignore list. He put me on long before I called him a troll. I've tried to debate, I've posted links to back up my argument, others have done so as well. He refuses to actually debate with reason and proof, despite repeatedly calling for it. Perhaps I shouldn't be as berating, using such harsh terms, and lowering myself to that level, and for that I will head what you've said. But that particular poster does fit the very definition of a troll. I will try to curb my frustrations, but since I've been called out for calling it out, I feel I have to wonder out loud why it continues to be tolerated. Again, not for belief, but content.

    Never said I was an expert, but I do try to debate with reason and fact. I just don't feel I'm getting that back. I doubt I am the reason they've left or have gotten banned. When you have so little to defend, as the modern neoconservative does (see above) I guess some feel the need to choose hit and runs, obfuscation, and outright distraction or lies, as he and several others have. I've never accused you of trolling nor had a problem with you. There are those I've criticized for their tactics lack of content. Maybe those I've been too harsh on. But in this case, do you really want to defend him? Really? Especially after that comment?

    See, there's where I have to strongly disagree. If you've really read my posts, I don't defend when Dems and liberals do this type of thing either. The situation here is terrible, no matter what side of the fence you sit on you should be disgusted, and part of a larger problem that is destroying this country. Over two thirds of this country feels so, and I doubt you'd call them all very far left. The moderates are the ones who have a problem with this. The only ones who don't are the partisans on the right who will continue to defend it. I wouldn't consider you one of those, and would hope you aren't. If the Clintons were pulling this (and let's not kid ourselves, they probably have) I'd be just as pissed. I have been pissed at them for this type of thing. But right now the Bush administration is doing it. And pardon me, but I'm angry they're not only doing it, but getting away with it.

    You act as if it's a pattern with me, when clearly it is not. I didn't start calling him a troll until long after he started ignoring me, and several others who have argued with reason and proof. Long after he came here posting in the manner he has, which you can't tell me is rational debate. And this is the first time I've started a post with a reference to him this way. You can imply causation, but I can assure you, it is reactionary. And, as I admitted, out of frustration.

    Different points of view, of course. I've had plenty of debates here with people from all walks of the political spectrum, and I don't go calling all of them trolls. Perhaps my wording was harsh, again I admit that. But come on now. The person I was referring to, and it was specifically one poster, does fit the definition. The tone, the tactics. As I've said, I've seen many a forum go down hill when taken over by trolls. I'll try harder not to lower myself to that in the future, but I'm not the only one who's noticed.

    That's my problem, is that we haven't been. Frustration. I'll calm down. Mods, do as you wish, I will stand by your decisions either way.

    We haven't been, but yes, I know, that's no excuse.

    It's not the right. The post is about a Bush crony. The insult is about one specific poster and a comment he made that set me off.

    You are correct, and for that, I will apologize.

    You should, because I am interested in your point of view.

    Though I can be berating when I debate and feel the facts are behind my argument, that wasn't my intent. I would love to debate. I feel there is one particular poster who chooses not to do so. I will try harder in the future not to lower myself to the same tactics and would appreciate the same from you. :)
     
  9. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #9
    I also side with solvs on this. I have read his posts for a relatively long period of time. He speaks his mind, but does not go out of his way to insult people, or discourage the the free exchange of opinions by anyone, regardless of where they fall in the political spectrum.

    There is a well known individual who has been making a point of doing the exact things some are accusing solvs of doing. But, this individual has had many issues with other members. He is constantly trying to disrupt the flow of ideas and opinions. It is he who brings ill-feeling upon himself. Go to his profile and look at his post history. The behavioral pattern is far to obvious to be misinterpreted.
     
  10. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #10
    True, and thank you. But to be fair, I was berating, if not baiting (even if I am on his ignore list). Frustration, as I said. I don't excuse that, and will freely apologize if Roddie feels I was being harsh here and elsewhere. I don't appreciate the "far left" stuff though. As I said, you don't have to be far left to be pissed about this. Well, you shouldn't be. I have my problems with the left as well, but they aren't the ones doing this right now. Don't worry, when they do, I'll still be criticizing. That's what I do. ;)
     
  11. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #11
    tsk tsk tsk.......baiting again? another swarmie in your sights? you're always after somebody!

    anyway, who even knew that Bush has a housing department??? I would have thought that was against his ideology
     
  12. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #12
    I wish, looking back I'd prefer him! :eek:

    Apparently it is, unless it's to help a buddy in the industry.
     
  13. Full of Win macrumors 68030

    Full of Win

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    #13
    Article II - Section 4 of the US Constitution states “The President, Vice President, and all civil officers of the United States shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors” – Moreover, Article I gives this power to congress (impeachment and trial).

    So…. Why have the democrats not impeached and tried him, since he is a civil officer? If he has committed a crime, and the democrat controlled Congresses has not acted – then I think the ones we need to hold the Democrats accountable for this.

    Don't you think? They (the Democrats in the congress) have the power to act on this - yet the democrats do NOTHING on the issue.
     
  14. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #14
    personally I take this with a grain of salt. What the truth of the story is seems to be more often that not pretty far from what the media says it is. The media seems to be quite good at leaving out key points to support their case.

    I think there is a more to this story that meets the eye.

    If you can not tell I have little faith left in the media.
     
  15. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #15
    Yep. You're right. We shouldn't blame the guy who actually DID the stuff, we should blame the people who didn't stop him.

    And Al Cowlings should have been arrested instead of OJ.
     
  16. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #16
    Did you read the stories though? The e-mails? These are actual e-mails. Not hearsay. Let me quote it again:

    Says right there what. And why. What more could be missing?
     
  17. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #17
    So deal with that individual on a logical or rational basis. If the issues were stuck to and reaffirmed when necessary, they would be much more difficult to disrupt, and not even the most effective "forum troll" would be unsuscessful. In many ways, the "problem" is itself a self-fullfilling prophecy given the speed at which the "problem" is identified, labelled and attacked.

    I am more impressed with those who remain unflappable and issue oriented than those who give in to the very environment they seek to prevent.
     
  18. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #18
    I am also guilty of that. I let myself get baited by trolls, only to bait them back. I try not to let it get to me, but when I see such things, I feel a compulsion to reply. Even when using logic and evidence, it's still usually a wasted endeavor. Just feel like someone has to combat the misinformation. In this case, I agree that I fell to the same level. Something I will try harder in the future to avoid doing. Though the "very far left" comment still bugs me for some reason. Especially when the only response to those who were caught red handed is to blame the media. I'm sorry, I respect your opinion Roddie, but I have to strongly disagree, based on what we do know to be true. We have the evidence. I'm sorry, there's just no defense here, and I think I've earned the right to be a little upset by it.

    I'm also stuck wondering why no one seems to be doing much about it though.
     
  19. sowillo14 macrumors regular

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    #19
  20. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #20
    Forgive me, I'm afraid I don't understand what you're getting at.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    Perhaps you should save your odious comments until you are old enough to actually pay some tax.
     
  22. sushi Moderator emeritus

    sushi

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    #22
    So true. Why would someone want to post under these situations.

    Personally, I like to come here and read differing view points, some of with I enjoy very much. Obviously I am fairly conservative but I do enjoy other points of view. Some of the posters here are thought provoking and I like that. It makes me examine my own views on things.

    Occasionally I might even post and debate a bit. But with the time difference and the bashing feeling on this board, it just isn't worth it.

    I imagine many other conservative folks feel the same way on MR.
     
  23. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #23
    But do you also condemn the conservatives who are using those tactics? The person I mentioned at the beginning of the thread does not participate in rational debate despite calling for such. Another one used terms like Dims and Dumbocrats. This wasn't in response to something one of us said. If you come in here with guns-a-blazing using such tactics, you can't expect us to consider this serious discussion. As I said, I will try not lower myself to that while condemning it, but it's not our fault the GOP lately has become what it has and is harder to defend using legitimate tactics. We've had some very articulate conservatives come in here to make a point, and are not shouted down or called trolls. I was pleasantly surprised to read a few in the Obama speech thread. Doesn't mean we're all "very far left" for having a problem with it either, anyone paying attention on either side should be unhappy with what's going on right now. You've had problems with some things too I've noticed.

    So someone coming in here using such tactics, and worse attacking us while defending the mistakes, does no one any good either. I would think the more reasonable on your side would be the ones who would have the biggest problem, as they may represent another view here, but do you really want that to represent you? I see liberals criticizing other liberals for doing that. As well they should. Also, on that point, remember it didn't always used to be this way. There was a time when we had a far broader political spectrum here. Reality has changed. The forum represents that. I have to assume if the Dems get to be in charge and royally screw up as bad or worse, actually not even if as bad because for some reason we expect so much more of them, most of us would still be pissed off because it isn't about party, it's about what's happening.

    And to turn it around on you, why would someone want to post if they can make logical, evidence based posts only to be responded to with trolling, or worse, outright ignored because a counter argument can't be made, only for that person to post the same incorrect info or rhetoric again later, all while calling for better discourse that's already there?
     
  24. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #24
    So engage them on the highest ground possible and make them hypocrites, instead of lowering yourself to their level. I understand the frustration you must feel, but giving in to baiting or engaging in it yourself isn't going to accomplish anything positive.

    Trolls are easy enough to recognize and discount even by the greenest members. If one sees trolling the answer is to support the trolled, not attack the troll.
     
  25. solvs thread starter macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #25
    That's why the comments above. I realize my mistake and am attempting to correct it so it doesn't happen again. Can't promise it won't, I'm still frustrated. Just wanted to point out that it isn't just us ganging up on the "poor conservative minority". The faux persecution complex being another standard tactic BTW (from all sides). It's a response to the tactics. Perhaps the one they want, to lower us to their level. Again, I fall for it. I don't know why. :eek: I posted a long response in another thread to some incorrect information, but I have to wonder if it will also just be ignored. Perhaps the length doesn't help either. :p

    I just don't think trolling should be tolerated, from anyone, and when I see it, I feel I should act.

    Again, I don't know why. :confused:


    Anyway, on topic:

    Getting To The Meat Of The Problem
    And

    Bush Administration Trying To Stop Fraud Reporting By War Contractors Abroad
    Sadly, there are so many other things I've read that can be posted about this type of thing, which is the real problem we should be dealing with here.
     

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