The Immigration Mess/Dilemma- Is There a Practical Solution?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #1
    I have always been a supporter of immigration law. Every country does have the right to set under what terms someone can become a citizen. I don't like the idea of immigrants sneaking into this country, working under the radar, and taking advantage of local social services intended for citizens, not aliens. It has always riled me in California, the thought of millions of illegals taping local services, possibly working at less than minimum wage, and not paying taxes. It even riles me more thinking of the businesses that utilize such labor to maximize their profits while disenfranchising citizens of decent wages.

    But the current situation in the U.S. is a hopeless mess. First of all, we could not afford to round up every illegal alien and deport them. From what I've read, it would cost billions. Secondly they are filling a nitch of work that most average Americans won't consider, migrant farm labor. Thirdly if you could wave a magic wand and make every illegal alien vanish, our economy would collapse immediately. You've been to a hotel and see who is doing all of the house cleaning, right? (However, I do see citizens, if they got desperate enough would be working on the house cleaning staffs at hotels.)

    What's most disturbing is the cynical nature of Republicans, pushing through immigration laws to make their base happy while secretly not wanting to hurt big business. I feel, as with most things they (GOP) do, they are not being honest about their true feelings on the subject. In essence they serve two masters, the voters (the dummies who the GOP has to convince, is on their side) who allow them keep their jobs and big business who wants cheap illegal labor.

    If you look at the Georgia Immigration Bill passed in April 2011, it could cost the state $21 Billion in lost economic activity. Can it be argued that the state, illegal immigrant free, would readjust and recover these jobs? Just what is the lesser of evils? I admit to not having the answer.

    .
     
  2. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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  3. Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #3
    Huh?
     
  4. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

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    #4
    Of course it isn't the first solution most poeple would come up with, but give it a thought.

    Think about it — makes sense.

    No borders. (Anywhere, not just between Mexico and the US. ;))
     
  5. Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #5
    I'm sorry not really following you. Is the No borders = no problem supposed to be a practical solution as in some sort of argument for dissolution of national sovereignty? Nations have borders. Nations have the right to determine citizenship and control immigration. Some countries do it better than others. As far as I know Canada has no real illegal immigration problem.
     
  6. Plutonius macrumors 603

    Plutonius

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    #6
    You really think that anyone up there from either party is being honest ? It has nothing to do with true feelings. The only goal that all the politicians have is being re-elected. I really wish we had term limits for congress.

    Note: It's exactly the same problem on this topic for the democrats. On one hand they don't want the illegal immigration because unions are against it but on the other hand they want the votes.
     
  7. Liquorpuki macrumors 68020

    Liquorpuki

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    #7
    1. Secure the borders to make it harder for illegals to get in here.
    2. One time Amnesty/path to citizenship for all illegals currently living in the US.
    3. Enforce immigration law thereafter.
     
  8. Huntn, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011

    Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #8
    Well the Republicans are the most vocal anti-illegal immigration proponents. I hear more sympathetic, or is it pragmatic statements coming from Democrats.

    What are you saying about the Democrats? If they are anti-illegal immigration, they will get the votes from the unions. Or are you saying they want the votes from the voter blocks such as Hispanics who are traditionally sympathetic to wet backs? If so, I can see that.

    Ok, what do you think about a 2000 mile fence? Or how about enabling effective controls at the employment level instead?
     
  9. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

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    #9
    The real problem is that there is pretty much no way for a poor, uneducated person to immigrate to the US. Everyone is always clamoring for illegal immigrants to just follow the law. If they did that, they'd have absolutely no chance at getting to the US and no chance of making a better life for themselves. Without a path for the legal immigration of poor, uneducated people, it won't matter how much you try to enforce immigration laws or keep people from getting across the border illegally, there will always be a steady stream of illegal immigrants entering the country.
     
  10. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

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    #10
    there is no practical solution ... illegals will always be pouring into Canada and the US
     
  11. Andeavor macrumors 6502

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    #11
    If you really want to reduce the amount of immigrants to your country then you better offer some help or programs for the countries they emigrate from. In other words, if Mexico were a stable and prosperous country there would be no reason for anyone to sneak to where the grass is greener.
     
  12. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

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    #12
    let Carlos Slim pay for it

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Slim
     
  13. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #13
    Ok Mr. McCain, how exactly do you manage that? Are you gonna "build the dang fence?"

    I'm really interested in how one secures a 2,000 mile border that much of which runs through desert and mountains.

    I believe the OP asked for practical solutions. I'd say employer level regulations (instead of just rounding up and deporting immigrants while saying NOTHING to the massive corporations that are busing them here) are a solution. That said our government is too bought off by such companies that any laws would be toothless or symbolic (due to lack of enforcement).
     
  14. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #14
    That was fine in the 19th century but with global population nearing 7 billion, it's simply not realistic. Supporting democracies positively, encouraging economic growth and supporting family planning efforts come before an idealistic 'no border' world.
     
  15. Huntn, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011

    Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #15
    If you look at what a national government is for, this would be one of the perfect roles, the caveat being "effective and efficient" government -employment oversight. It can be done...maybe. ;)

    Edit: Based on what I currently know, my impression is that this is the answer if there is one.
     
  16. likemyorbs macrumors 68000

    likemyorbs

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    #16
    What a rosy world you must live in. What are you, 13, 14?
     
  17. Apple OC macrumors 68040

    Apple OC

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    #17
    If we could build a railway from coast to coast in the era it was built ... we could build a fence in modern times
     
  18. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #18
    So despite the astronomical costs, and several false starts where less than 200 miles of actual (crappy chain link) fencing was built, its as easy as just saying it is.

    Gotcha.

    I thought we were trying to discuss practicality in this thread, not just talking points and boilerplate for the sake of themselves. Oh well.
     
  19. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

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    #19
    It doesn't matter how effective and efficient the government is in enforcing immigration laws. If you live in a country that's routinely unearthing mass graves of beheaded people, you're going to consider coming to the US even if you know that the government is using E-Verify or something like that effectively. A lot of people would rather take their chances trying to find under-the-table jobs.

    And then they bring their kids with them because they want to protect their families. Then that kid is brought up illegally in the US and with such effective immigration laws, he'll never be able to get a job. So then he won't get an education, because it won't matter. So what will he be able to turn to? Crime?

    People always talk about how, "Yes, we're a nation of immigrants, but my ancestors did it legally, so should they," yet with current immigration laws, pretty much 90%* of the immigration to this country wouldn't have happened, or at least wouldn't have been legal.

    When did the US stop being a country that welcomed poor immigrants? I'm not sure, but it certainly isn't working.

    *Don't quote me on that figure.
     
  20. macquariumguy macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    Good, we have too many of them already.
     
  21. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #21
    The concept of legal vs illegal immigration has only been relevant for the last 90 or so years. Unless of course you were Chinese.

    I've stated this before and I'll make the point again, any country, no matter how wealthy or welcoming, can only take in so many immigrants at any one time. Could the US do a better job? Absolutely, it's been a long time since there's been any major effort at immigration reform. It's all been piecemeal.
     
  22. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #22
    He was speaking of a legal way. Clearly that has not stopped the millions of desperate people who risk their own lives just to get to this country. Saying "no" in our laws doesn't eliminate anything.

    To a broader point about Mexico, I wonder if NAFTA undercutting millions of poor Mexican farmers (effectively making their crops worthless) and driving them to: 1. the only profitable crop they can now grow (drugs), or 2: leave to find a better chance at life, has anything to do with the flood of immigration that occurred for roughly a decade after its enaction? HMMMMMM?


    I love how this country is so short sighted that we can't even see the problems we've created for ourselves.
    :rolleyes:
     
  23. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

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    #23
    I would suggest that we at least make it possible for people to immigrate legally. Obviously you can't take everyone, but if you create a path to legal immigration, people will follow it. They won't all get in, but they'll feel like they have options. Instead, they know there's no path to legal immigration, so they try to immigrate illegally, however they can.
     
  24. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

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    #24
    Except we already have that. We even have a diversity lottery where we just randomly hand out 50,000 green cards a year. Why we're worried about diversity in free green cards when we have 15% unemployment at home escapes me. And what of the people who get turned down? They're still going to try to get in illegally, so we're back where we started.
     
  25. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #25
    We already do have fairly high immigration relative to other developed nations (on average). Of course we need to a steady flow of immigrants, but more importantly, we need a steady flow of productive immigrants. We currently have a formula that is geared towards preserving families, leading to increased strain on public services. We probably have to look realistically towards maximizing the merit aspects of immigration and downplaying the distant relations aspect.

    This is especially poignant right now when the American economy keeps shedding unskilled labor jobs and shows increased demand for engineers, biologists, nurses, and chemists. I don't have anything against illegal immigrants as people, but chances are they aren't going to be qualified to work for Genentech as a researcher.
     

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