The Incriminating Story McCain Has Sought To Bury

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SMM, Sep 21, 2008.

  1. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #1
    I have been sitting on this story for quite awhile. At the time I first came across it, I just had a single source and thought it unfair to post it with nothing more than that. One key thing, which gives the video much more creditability, is the fact it is was make in 1992, long before McCain became a serious player on the national scene. It is not a 'swiftboat attack', quickly put together for the election. Another point, which lends credibility is this is made by republicans, not democrats.

    The DNC and Obama campaign have not brought this story forward, although I am fairly certain they have known of its existence and content for months. The MSM has been dead silent about it. Even the liberal blogosphere has largely ignored the story. The following is from AlterNet. That is a pretty good indication this story is about to break. AlterNet is widely read and many subscribe to its daily (free) newsletter.

     
  2. Ntombi macrumors 68030

    Ntombi

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    #2
    I'm out and busy, so I only read your intro. I'll read it and watch the video later, but I just wanted to remind you that 1992 was when McCain was running against W. in the primaries, and that's when Rove et al spread the rumor that he fathered a black baby.

    Don't take the fact that republicans made it too seriously.


    Edit: DISREGARD, I had a brain fart. :eek:
     
  3. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #3
    Hopefully more evidence of this comes to light. If it is true then i really have no respect for the man in any way shape or form anymore. Yes the statements could have been him being forced under threat of severe torture, but to hide it all these years for ensuring a political future is just plain disgusting. We would have understood if he was FORCED to, and if he came clean idt it would have been that damning.

    Really tho, i need some more evidence. The fact that its the republicans video does give it some bite tho.
     
  4. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #4
    I look this an damn if you do damned if you dont. Admit you did it and the media is all over you.

    Cover it up and the media is all over you.

    The public is not going to understand anything other than the collaboration part. Times like that in some one live they tend not to want to talk at all. I would not blame him at all not to want to talk about his time while a POW or certain parts of it as the memories are to painful and better left forgotten.
     
  5. nanofrog macrumors G4

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    #5
    I didn't see the thread you intended in the link. Only a list of threads, and nothing stood out at a quick glance. :confused:

    I do understand that politicians can find themselves in a "catch 22", but this seems to have more merit than that.
    It's one thing to not want to talk about an experience like that. But another to feverishly block the declassification of documents pertaining to POW/MIA to avoid having the issue even mentioned. It makes much more sense that his resistance to such legislation would be something specific in the documentation that would cause his political career harm. Combine that with the stance he took, in the form of a threat, with the North Vietnamese government.

    Those actions seem to far exceed just the unwillingness to speak of his time as a POW.
     
  6. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #6
    No, Bush vs. McCain in the primaries was in 2000, not 1992. 1992 was George H.W. Bush running against Clinton.
     
  7. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #7
    I absolutely will not knock McCain for what happened over there. The vast majority of us could not comprehend what he went through. This should be left alone.
     
  8. Ntombi macrumors 68030

    Ntombi

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    #8
    :eek: oh, geez. I saw 1992 and my somehow head switched that to 2000. I'm so sorry, of course you're right!
     
  9. jplan2008 macrumors regular

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    #9
    The issue isn't what happened over there really. The issue is whether he not only has lied about his actions to gain political power (the story that he could have left sooner but didn't), but much worse, has kept families of MIA's from accessing their loved ones' records to conceal his secret, and even denied ex-prisoners the right to see their own files. That should come out if there were real evidence, but since there's not, I don't know who is going to bring this up. For once I don't blame the MSM for leaving this alone. Seems compelling considering these are not only Republicans but also ex-POW's and other vets, but although they raise great questions, but there's no proof. Not going anywhere. And they say McCain fought for the records to be classified FOREVER, so if true, we'll never know, I guess.
     
  10. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #10
    thats what i was trying to get at. I dont care about what he actually did, hell any of us would sell out our countries if tortured/beaten enough. What angers me is what he did AFTER. (assuming this is all true)
     
  11. SMM thread starter macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #11
    I think this is going to be the first time I have disagreed with you, Lee. Perhaps, I have the 'personal knowledge advantage'.

    Every service man/woman, going into a war zone, must go through training on the Geneva Convention and the "United States Military Code of Conduct", which defines your responsibilities (when captured), as an American combatant. I no longer remember everything it entailed, so I stopped at this point and looked it up.

    Article I

    I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

    Article II

    I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

    Article III

    If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

    Article IV

    If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

    Article V

    When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

    Article VI

    I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

    Wiki has an expanded version, which I have linked.

    We all knew what was expected of us and I am glad I did not have to endure it in ernest. All Naval aviators and combat aircrew members had to attend SERE school. It lasted a little over 3 weeks, with the first week dedicated to survival. The last portion was focused on live evasion from the enemy (yes, they actually had enemy soldiers trying to track you down and capture you). Then you went to the POW camp. It was very real. It was designed by actual POWs from Korea and rescued ones from Vietnam. We were harshly interrogated, including beatings and water boarding. So, it is not like we were not trained and 'in the dark' about what the agenda was going to be.

    Training is one thing, but I am sure it falls short of knowing it is real and having to endure it. Many servicemen 'broke under questioning. But, it is seldom what is depicted in Hollywood. You are tortured and break. But, it is temporary. Any strategic knowledge you have will soon be stale, and of no further use. So, interrogation becomes infrequent, or ceases. That is when the tactics change. They want you to engage in propaganda, make video recordings condemning the US and promoting their side. Torture does not work for that. So, they offer enticements, try to be friendly. That is where collaboration comes into play. This is what McCain is accused of doing and it is not in keeping with the COC, but is also hated by the other prisoners. Very few prisoners are lured by privileges to sell-out their country.

    If this story is indeed true, Lee, it is not a private matter. In order to protect his name, he hindered the work if the Congressional Investigations, blocked and sealed the records of information pertaining to what happened to some families loved ones, then slandered, insulted and belittled them in front of the Senate for daring to come to WA to demand the information. I have actually watched this video a couple times. I had to. The first time, I watched in shocked disbelief. I can find and link this for you if you wish. It is not pretty. Actually, it was over this very issue, he pushed the lady in the wheelchair, after insulting her. I am sorry, Lee, but this is not just a personal matter.

    It also bares reminder that McCain (and his campaign) have been using the POW/Hero moniker throughout this campaign. No one was talking this up before they began. They made this a public, even going so far as using it as an excuse for his many gaffes and bald-faced lies.

    Let me know if you want that link.
     
  12. Ntombi macrumors 68030

    Ntombi

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    #12
    This is the second time in only a few days that I got chills reading one of your posts, SMM. Thank you.

    I would like the link when you get a chance.
     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #13
    Why is it ok for the GOP to wear purple hearted bandaids and make fun of Kerry, but anyone even mentions something about McCain's service, even if they're military (see Gen Clark), suddenly it's out of bounds.
     
  14. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #14
    if anything of this is true, and the vietnamese actually do have evidence that McCain was a collaborator (even to a small extent), doesn't give them an astounding amount of leverage on the us?
     
  15. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #15
    another interesting article with some extra infos, especially regarding how many US POW were knowingly "left behind": several hundreds, according to the author of the article.

    http://www.nationinstitute.org/p/schanberg09182008pt1

    edit: are there official number of McCain support among POWs? i would have imagined them to be extremely high, but if these efforts where perceived to be against the MIA/POW by that community, the reality would be different.
     
  16. jplan2008 macrumors regular

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    #16
  17. Peace macrumors P6

    Peace

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    #17
    I'm an Obama supporter and I think McCain is using dirty politics. But.

    I'm also a Vietnam Veteran and I have friends that are vets and were POW's.

    This is one area that should be off limits because when you are subjected to the kind of torture the VC dished out a lot of people would and did say or do anything. Unless you are very familiar with that war situation it belongs on the sidelines.
     
  18. thebassoonist macrumors 6502a

    thebassoonist

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    #18
    Thanks for this. Very thought provoking.
     
  19. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #19
    Peace, thanks for chipping in, i was hoping you would.
    Is there any credence in the POW's circles about this? i don't really care about McCain's "confession" or the alleged propaganda tapes: material obtained under torture has not much relevance.
    but the following cover-up bothers me, especially if it lead to hundreds of POWs being knowingly left behind for petty reasons.
    The Schanberg story is very compelling, and McCain's credibility is largely based on him being a POW.
    i'd like to remind that Schanberg is highly respected journalist, winner of a Pulitzer-prize among many other awards, so it's not the case an unknown shmuck who's trying to make a name for himself
     
  20. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #20
    What went on over there was under duress, and should be off-limits.

    What went on at home, however, is another kettle of fish.

    He should not have covered anything up, if true, at the expense of others.

    He had no reason to feel guilty, although he probably thought otherwise.
     
  21. Peace macrumors P6

    Peace

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    #21
    There were and indeed still are vets left behind. For whatever reason. On the other side of the coin there are vets that stayed behind purposefully because they wanted to. They married girls there or didn't like the USA anymore and decided to stay. I still know one guy that goes back there all the time because he "misses it".

    It's the old Stockholm Syndrome. That was probably McCain's deal with wanting to stay. He was brainwashed so much he gave in.

    Sad but true.

    That's the main reason I won't vote for him. I believe he's to unstable too be President.
     
  22. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #22
    I see what you mean. In other words, he has no right to be referred to as a "hero" or some other such thing. I guess I understand your point, but I'm not going there. If others want to, fine. But I refuse. Feel free to send the link though.
     
  23. sushi Moderator emeritus

    sushi

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    #23
    What everyone is failing to take into account, is that maybe his actions are more honorable than some would believe and he wants all to be protected.

    Since most already know about his situation, he may in fact want to protect others who would be embarrassed, discredited, shamed, etc. if information about their captivity were to be released.

    For those who like to read, here are some interesting books concerning Vietnam and POW experiences:
    • Five Years to Freedom by Nick Rowe.
    • Into the Mouth of the Cat: The Story of Lance Sijan, Hero of Vietnam by Malcolm McConnell.
    • Escape from the Box: The Wonder of Human Potential by Edward L. Hubbard
     
  24. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #24
    Do I think we should make judgments about what a man said 30 years ago as a POW? Not necessarily. But the fact that McCain uses his POW experience extensively for political leverage makes it fair game for scrutiny. If McCain kept his time as a POW in his private life rather than his public life I'd agree with you, but when the man is brazenly exploiting his POW status as a sword and shield to further his political career he has willingly opened himself up to criticism, IMO. If he says because of X, Y, and Z I'd make a great President should we not go back and look at X, Y, and Z to examine the validity of his claims? To be honest though I don't have much sympathy for whatever Vietnam era dirt people can dig up on McCain because I find his abusive use of his time as a POW to deflect even the most mundane criticism is dishonorable and insulting.


    Lethal
     
  25. jplan2008 macrumors regular

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    #25
    I agree. If it's used as a reason to vote FOR him, then it should be examined. Also, the most disturbing part is again the allegation that he has used his cover-up to deny other POW's and their families and families of MIA's information, and instead berates them and apparently even assaults them physically.

    Despite how much I despise McCain, I did also immediately consider Sushi's suggestion that maybe he is acting to PROTECT POW's and their families. But that doesn't seem logical -- there are other ways to do that instead of guaranteeing that the records will stay in a foreign vault forever.

    For me it's not a matter of not knowing what I'd do in the situation of torture. I KNOW without a doubt I'd do pretty much anything in that situation. One tape, 32, 50. That's why I abhor torture of anyone. So if that were the issue, for me it would pretty much be a non-issue, other than the article that suggests McCain wouldn't be/isn't eligible to be President. That should be considered. The question on whether his whole story of torture is a lie is also troubling.

    So, I think it should be looked into, BUT if it's supposition, I don't think it should be a campaign issue, or that supposition should be used to make decisions. (other than eligibility to be President, which would seem to be the case even with the one tape he acknowledges. If people think that's unfair, then the Constitution could be amended).

    There's already enough video evidence that McCain is a liar on many issues, and there is his record on voting against prohibiting waterboarding and against acquiring and releasing information about POW's and MIA's. There's no reason to use supposition, as distasteful as his touting of his military record has been. Just because people attacked Kerry with Vietnam issue, doesn't mean the same should be done to McCain.
     

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