The Limits of Freedom

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #1
    As a country, the U.S. prides itself on supposedly being the freest of nations. My intent is not to limit the discussion to U.S. citizens so pile on from where ever you are from. :)

    What does freedom mean to you? Where does freedom start and stop? How it effected by the more people living in a society?

    My real agenda: Should large multinational corporations have the freedom to ship your job, and all jobs like your overseas so they can reap the profits and you can eat dirt for all they care? Of course I say "HELL NO!"

    Freedom is a balance between the individual and a functional society. I see government as a tool to defend the average people from those who wield power. Course you have to have people in government who sympathies with average people. This can be achieved in a democracy when the average people get out there and vote in their own best interests. ;)
     
  2. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #2
    When was the last time the people actually voted in their best interest?

    Thats not a function of our 2 party system.
     
  3. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #3
    Corrected for Truth. :)
     
  4. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #4
    Touché
     
  5. Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #5
    So democracy may not be the best form of government? Maybe benevolent dictatorship instead? ;)

    What is not, guaranteeing freedom? We claim we are the freest of the free, don't we? Why do we do that?

    BTW, what makes ours a 2 party system? I realize that entrenched parties have advantages, but the last ballot I looked at at 5 or 6 different parties listed. We are 2 party primarily because everyone votes for those 2 parties. :)
     
  6. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #6
    A functioning democracy is the best form of government.

    That said, when you've managed to convince the majority of the population that a group of politicians that vote essentially the same on 90% of issues is actually two vastly different parties, well thats a different story now isn't it?

    As for whatever we claim, rhetoric is rhetoric, which is why I try to ignore the chest pounding of my peers. Actions and results are what need to be use to determine a country's standing.
     
  7. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #7
    I wonder if the OP would be equally angry at foreign multi-national corporations bringing jobs HERE!?! I doubt it. :rolleyes:

    A lesson for the OP from Thomas Jefferson:
    It's easy to sit back and allow despotism, big-government, dictatorships, politicians in ivory towers control your lives and your economy while you sit back and relax, but in the end it will be you who suffers because of it... and if you had taken the harder road of freedom, open markets, and liberty (and the responsibility that comes with) you will prosper and have more health, wealth, and security than you could have otherwise imagined.
     
  8. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2001
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    #8
    Tradition, for one, but more importantly the two-party system is an artifact of a flawed and simplistic method for conducting elections. Giving each person a single vote for the one person he most wants to see in office generates stable results only with two major parties. It requires strategic voting in order to defeat a hated candidate with a significant plurality, and with multiple parties carries the risk of divided blocs resulting in victory by a candidate unacceptable to the overwhelming majority. The electoral system for President additionally complicates the supportability of multiple parties in that election. I would bet that in simulations a system such as ours will always converge on two parties.

    There are a number of simple systems in practice around the world, and even in local elections in the United States in many cases, that do not carry this flaw. Simply having voters check all acceptable candidates is one such system. Giving voters "positive" and "negative" votes (with an implicit neutral vote) provides even more accuracy, as does ranking candidates in order of acceptability.
     
  9. Liquorpuki macrumors 68020

    Liquorpuki

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Location:
    City of Angels
    #9
    Who says it's YOUR job? A job is a contract between employer and employee, not a piece of property
     
  10. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #10
    Yes, it is. Would it be fine with you if your company outsourced yours?
     
  11. coochiekuta macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Location:
    here and there
    #11
    freedom is the KKKs ability to march down a city street and not to attacked for it. freedom is protecting the minority from the majority.

    should a large corporation be allowed to control its fate? yes. if they decided to downsize or move production to a place which would make things cheaper or less expensive for them, then i say that is their right.

    when a business such as big tobacco, big oil, big pharmaceuticals, etc have politicians working for them and not for the people, that is a problem. when they are granted rights as if they are individuals that is trouble.

    politicians do not represent freedom or any idea of liberty. i dont imagine they ever have. they dont work for the people but for the dollar of their supporters. they are businessmen and they protect their clients first, not the people they supposely represent. the career politicians of this nation use politics as a way to get rich and nothing more. i dont include them in my idea of freedom.
     
  12. Liquorpuki macrumors 68020

    Liquorpuki

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Location:
    City of Angels
    #12
    I used to work manufacturing and my job WAS outsourced. Regardless of how I felt it's perfectly legal and justifiable for a corporation to lay me off and outsource the work that I do. If they need to outsource manufacturing to remain competitive (which is what my company had to do), I don't see why my needs should cause the company I work for to tank. Which is why when you get hired there's a contract you sign to spell these things out on paper. Which is why a job is not a piece of property and shouldn't be treated as one.
     
  13. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #13
    So- you won't mind if companies outsource to the point where there are not enough jobs for, say even 75% of the population or even more? What happens then? I mean, companies have to stay competitive, right?
     
  14. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #14
    Liquorpuki, good for you for standing up for your principles despite being on the receiving end of such a thing.

    Lee, you need to learn a bit more about economics before making wild hypotheticals. Long before unemployment got to 75% in this country, wage levels would go down to a level where it would no longer be efficient for companies to outsource jobs, and it would again be in their best interest to hire American workers. Supply and demand. Economics 101. FAIL.
     
  15. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    #15

    Please let us know when you get to 102.
     
  16. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #16
    He spends a lot of time in 101. He must have to keep repeating it. ;)
     
  17. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2003
    #17
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ;);)
     
  18. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Location:
    OBJECTIVE reality
    #18
    Oh yes. Companies have to look out for their own interests, and we...well, we have to look out for the companies' interests as well.

    And looking out for our interests is...um...

    Uh......
     
  19. Liquorpuki macrumors 68020

    Liquorpuki

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2009
    Location:
    City of Angels
    #19
    Strawman

    But please describe the circumstances which would cause 75% of the US to become unemployed. A nuclear bomb would have had to hit us

    If you look at economies, the US is following the UK and moving into a service-based economy. Manufacturing jobs get outsourced but are replaced by more jobs in the service sector, where work relies on knowledge instead of just manual labor. It's a better deal. For one, these jobs are less likely to be outsourced because they're usually cultivated in first world nations. Second, the jobs are more resilient to recessions.

    Thanks. I ended up going back to school and becoming an engineer. Now I make way more money, don't have to deal with the threat of layoffs every few months, and moved into that service sector I was talking about. I don't care about the job I lost, whatever Taiwanese guy they gave it to can keep it.
     
  20. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #20
    I doubt this would actually happen. If the US wages are reasonably competitive people will do work there. As China and India have been developing over the past 20-30 years there has been huge pressure on wages in the rich countries due to their vast populations. As they get more and more developed and are competing as equals it'll be less of an issue.
     
  21. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #21
    So this is your answer? Everyone just become an engineer? You know that's not possible. Not everyone can go to college either.

    You hope, anyway.
     
  22. paddy macrumors 6502a

    paddy

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2005
    Location:
    TN
    #22
    If that's your real agenda I suggest you read up on international trade theory, which will answer your question (yes, they should be allowed). Read a book called The Choice, very interesting novel based on what you just asked.
     
  23. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #23
    I'm so thankful that all these service sector jobs are just flooding into the country right now. I mean, if this theory of yours didn't hold up to reality we might even have have unemployment hovering around, say, 10%*

    Thank god that isn't happening.
     
  24. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Location:
    UK
    #24
    Given Queso has said before that software engineers in India are paid as much as in the UK, in some fields its already happened.
     
  25. Mousse macrumors 68000

    Mousse

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2008
    Location:
    Flea Bottom, King's Landing
    #25
    I'd like that. We'd know who to lynch when things wrong. With all the bureaucracy no one is being accountable. The Democrat blame the Republicans and vice versa. The liberals blame the conservatives and vice versa. The Tea party is blaming everybody. No one is accountable. I vote for a dictatorship. We can all blame all of our problems on that SOB.;)
     

Share This Page