The non-bullying political car thread

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by cube, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. cube macrumors P6

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    #1
    I make this hopefully bully-free zone where one does not get suspended for bringing up climate change.
     
  2. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #2
    Are there any cars being sold that have differential GPS?
     
  3. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #3
    If the latest diesel engines are indeed better than petrol for public health, surely biodiesel should be better than ethanol?
     
  4. H2SO4 macrumors 601

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    #4
    Are they?
    I personally think there is something a little cloak and dagger about the relationship between car companies and the fuel industry. From what I can gather a lot of manufacturers do not permit the use of biodiesel in their cars.
     
  5. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #5
    I had to come into this thread for the title alone. Intriguing. tangentially, I had a conversation with a friend the other day about the relative-impact of a a 1979 Volvo. Sure, it gets 17mpg, but it was built in 1979 and still goes strong...measured out over 40 years, that car is pretty environmentally-conscious.
     
  6. H2SO4 macrumors 601

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    #6
    This is what nobody has yet to be able to tell me.
    There will be a point where the manufacture and pollution produced by that old Volvo over takes the amount of that produced by manufacturing and using a new car.
    When we know this we will be better informed about how long we should keep a car.
     
  7. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #7
    If this is apolitical why is it in PRSI?

    No, dGPS is essentially an obsolete system. In the dGPS stations have been progressively shut down.

    dGPS had some marine application back in it peak deployment, but was mostly used on commercial and rescue vessels. dGPS had its advent due to overcome the military embargo on GPS accuracy. When Ronald Regan allowed GPS became available to consumers it had 100m accuracy because of military concerns that their full 15m accuracy could pose national security concerns. Therefore civilian GPS was degraded while military GPS remained encrypted, irritating the aviation industry along with the FAA and Coast Guard. The USCG funded dGPS to obtain far better accuracy, closer to 5-10m on average. Bill Clinton however eventually authorized full 15m GPS accuracy. Shortly thereafter the first space based augmentation system (SBAS) went into service, basically a similar concept to dGPS only using satellites to transmit corrections instead of ground antennas. WAAS (wide area augmentation system) was first, improving reliability and accuracy closer to 3m, plus resolved the geographic and range limitations of dGPS. Several other major SBAS networks exist in the world now. As a result dGPS is being decommissioned in the US.

    Today there are now also the additional global satelllite navigation systems including GLONASS, Galileo, and BeiDou (Russian, EU, and China, respectively). Recievers can combine signals to improve overall accuracy. For example, my dad’s boat has Raymarine electronics that uses GNSS- GPS and GLONASS, along with one of several SBAS programs if available in the area such as WAAS. Supposedly can yield as little as a 2-3 meter accuracy.

    Most people use their cell phones to navigate even if they have built-in GPS navigation. The new norm is CarPlay and Android Auto allowing integrated use of Apple or Google Maps while cell phones have become sophisticated navigation devices. iPhones 8’s and newer currently use GPS, GLONAS, and Galileo in addition to using cellular triangulation, WiFi obtained location, inertial sensors, predictive software, etc. Phones integrate this info for an accurate position of <5m almost instantly, (unlike GPS).

    Volvo now uses GPS + Galileo + EGNOS (EU SBAS), primarily for emergency calls. Tesla is using GPS + GLONASS + Galileo + BeiBou recievers in their vehicles- self driving vehicles obviously demand calculating highly accurate locations quickly and reliabily. With advances in autonomous technology, we’re likely to see more navigation/location technology developed and implemented.

    At the end of 2018 the US launched its first GPSIII enabled satellite. The current GPS revision offers around 7m accuracy, GPSIII technology when active alone will offer 1-3m and is scheduled for completion is 2023. Cell phone advances may put that distance even lower before then.

    Back to dGPS, right now regular, unassisted GPS is more than sufficient for its use in cars. As you may have noticed, the navigation software uses location, heading, and speed to snaps the car’s location on the road, which accounts for inaccuracies. The maps in cars without a data connection are relatively low resolution (even with Google maps resolution while better is still relatively low). Between the map resolution, size of the car, speed, and software corrections, a more accurate GPS is unecessary for these systems. But as mentioned, with autonomous driving technologies we will likely need promote more accurate technolgies.

    There seems to be interest in deploying a terrestrial GPS system. It’s likely this would not only provide better accuracy required for autonomous vehicles/safety systems, but also improved security. With so much of our technology and economy dependent on satellite GPS not only for navigation, but also precise, uniform time keeping, there is the concern a future World War will target satellites. There was a bunch of outrage by some here when the Coast Guard shut down its remaining LORAN stations, by that time incredibly obsolete but still a functional backup to GPS, despite accuracy in the dozens-hundreds of meters. Why I was little my dad’s boat had a CRT monitor, Very high tech!
     
  8. cube, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019

    cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #8
    As I said, this thread is here because the moderators suspend you if you make a climate change reference outside of PRSI.

    dGPS does not seem finished. It looks that they increased the accuracy to about 1cm lately. If it is being shut down in the US it does not mean the same is happening everywhere.

    So apparently it would be useful now to improve wrong way detection and speed assistance.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 5, 2019 ---
    I posted a link in another thread where they mention that the new Euro 6d-TEMP diesels generate so little emissions that the petrol engines are worse because these emit more fine particles, which are the ones having more adverse health effects.

    The French government is to be launching a study because they are not giving these engines the highest level of city access, unlike for the newer petrol cars.
     
  9. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #9
    What is happening with dGPS is that the terrestrial transmitters are superseded by geostationary satellites covering a region which redistribute signals received at multiple ground stations.
     
  10. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #10
    I’m curious to see what dGPS technology is available to consumers with 1cm accuracy in real world conditions. This is possible to achieve, but as far as I know it would require precise positioning service (PPS) which is access to the US Military’s encrypted signal, which is available for very specific non-military use with authorization and likely requires very expensive equipment and times with specific satellite positions.

    Yes, other countries may still be operating it but the whole America thing is an overused response by you- the developer world tends to follow technological trends together. The US gave up on LORAN in 2010, the EU spent a bunch of money trying to keep it alive but finally shut it down in 2010. Technology tends to move forward and dGPS is one of numerous obsolete electronic navigation systems of the past.

    I honestly don’t think there are any companies currently manufacturing dGPS receivers, at least not in remotely standardized products. This probably even more true considering the US’s decision to decommission it, one reason being few people still use dGPS and manufacturers stopped making compatible equiptment In real world conditions SBAS like WAAS offers comparable if not better accuracy and has far better coverage. As dGPS was primarily for marine use, the stations are generally only located on the coast. Pilots can chime in here but I believe a dGPS had some life in aviation but doesn’t appear to be used extensively today, rather a remnant. I’d think these specific systems are designed more for sky than the land. I’d also suspect buildings and ground terrain such as mountains could cause problems. As a relatively niche, short lived, and stagnant technology, I’d also question dGPS recievers are intended or can be small and efficient enough for today’s mobile devices.

    While it’s possible a form of ground based augmentation system may return for personal navigation, it probably will be very different than dGPS. Far more likely it will be a terrestrial GPS system that can operate independently of satellites and potentially penetrate buildings. dGPS can only work if Satellites work and the government already is concerned about reliance on satellites.

    Broadcom apparently has a chip for smartphones that’s promising 30cm using dual band gps. GPSIII should bring substantial improvements in the next couple years that will be augmented with other afformentioned phone technologies from my last post.

    I can’t see is practical value for the average person needing 1cm accuracy from dGPS + PPS GPS, particularly when driving. Now that we’re in the range of +/- several meters further accuracy doesn’t have an appreciable difference, especially when driving at 65mph down the highway.

    I’ve had detours that took me into the wrong lane and the GPS would bounce me on/off the road, which seems like a software thing that be programmed to recognize I’m technically going the wrong way. A lot of wrong way scenarios could probably be determined with intelligent software and integrating GPS (location, speed) with other variables like direction (compass, accelerometers, steering wheel position). Cameras would probably be more feasible in identifying this (wrong way signs, crossing lane markings, comparing number of lanes visible to map data). As for speed assistance this technology already exists and works fine with most systems using GPS technology. It’s just a matter of having information for all streets.

    The real problem with stock navigation in cars is generally the limited map information, bad map software, a bad user interface, and in some cases slow hardware. This is largely resolved if the car has a Google Maps and a cellular connection built in or CarPlay/Android Auto, the latter of which most cars now offer. The few problems I experience these days with Google/Apple Maps (primarily Apples Maps) is a lack of updated map information, usually related to points of interest. The GPS is more than adequate when it comes to pinpointing my location.
     
  11. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #11
    It seems up to 2cm accuracy is being used for agricultural purposes. The system would allow for 20cm accuracy 80% of the time.

    Several meters of accuracy is not enough to detect if you are on the wrong side of the road. One could argue that implementing this with augmentation than with image recognition would be easier and cheaper.

    Several meters of accuracy instead of centimeters can also have an impact when dealing with speed.
     
  12. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #12
    While I don't know diesel is better than gas, it certainly is better than it was even 10 years ago. I drive a diesel truck and over the years they have gotten better, and much more powerful. In my F-250, if you didn't hear the valves tapping, you wouldn't know it was a diesel. The SCR systems have knocked that smell almost down to nothing.

    Ford allows up to B20, or 20% biodiesel in their trucks. Ran it once it my last one and only because it was what the truck stop had and I can't remember any difference and probably not enough bio to make it smell like fries. But probably wouldn't on a regular basis just like I don't run E15 in any cars even though I could.
     
  13. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #13
    Most diesel vehicles from the last 10 years would be too dirty. The latest standard only exists since September 2017 and is not yet mandatory.
     
  14. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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  15. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #15
    I read that this morning

    At least now we might stop hearing about how the EU is ganging up on American companies
     
  16. cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #16
    Right after slogangate.
     
  17. cube, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019

    cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #17
    GPS clocks will roll over tomorrow. You have to check how your devices will be affected.
     
  18. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

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    #19
    That’s incredibly unlikely. Sign post image recognition already exists, is already implemented, and has been around for years. Cars have been able to read lines on the road for years, not to mention people, bicyclists, and cars. They can now practically drive themselves down the highway with minimal intervention. A lot of this tech is developed by third parties and licensed to auto manufactures. A ground based augementation system would be extremely expensive to build. dGPS as it is/was only had a range of 300 miles- over open water or broadcasting into the sky.

    Again, I don’t think a governments would invest massive sums of money to install nationwide ground based systems when significant precision can already be had with existing technologies- especially when augmentation is reliant on the already vulnerable GPS infrastructure. Global electronics companies would be unlikely to invest in adding augmentation accommodations to their products if an ground based system is only used in a single country. I can only see government investing in a system that works independent of GPS, ie terrestrial GPS or eLoran (which has been unsuccessful despite numerous attempts around the world).

    In fact perhaps the most accurate system would be a hybrid of existing GPS and intertial navigation as I alluded to earlier.

    StarFire, interestingly developed by John Deere, is the major argricultural augmentation system accurate to centimeters as you referenced. Again, this is not a ground based augmentation system or even a space based system. Unlike conventional GPS, it works off two of the civilian GPS bands, using a highly precise (and quite large) dual-band GPS recievers that cost $5000 not to mention another $5000 for the display. You can then spend an additional $5000 for a cellular system to augument the GPS augmentation for even better accuracy. Then there’s thousands of dollars a year in subscription fees. This isn’t a $99 GPS from Amazon.
     
  19. cube, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019

    cube thread starter macrumors P6

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    #20
    Traffic sign recognition accuracy rages from about 35% to 95% depending on brand and is not comprehensive. Because of their design in some countries, you still need GPS to recognize city limits, for example.

    There might be no lines drawn on the ground, this is where accurate positioning becomes simpler.

    Ground transmitters would not be needed as the trend now is wide area differential GPS, as mentioned before.

    The cost of an agricultural system is irrelevant when we are talking about the mass market.

    And the system I was talking about combines GPS, GLONASS and EGNOS data, not cellular.
     
  20. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #21
    Given that motor vehicles indisputably reduce human intelligence, PRSI seems like a most appropriate place for it.
     
  21. bambooshots macrumors 65816

    bambooshots

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    #22
    Given how most people seem to act when behind the wheel, I’d have to agree with this.
     
  22. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #23
    I think we as a society have become too reliant on GPS. My neighbors won't go anywhere outside their bubble without one. We went out of town with them one time. We checked into our hotel room and they programmed dinner into the GPS. No biggie, I just let them do it even though I knew where we were and where the restaurant was (hint: same road).

    So we had dinner and they are both big wine drinkers and I had a couple of glasses as well, so my wife drove us back to the hotel. They actually tried to get her to not pull out until they had programmed the hotel into the GPS. The same hotel that was 2 miles down the same road. My wife just said she knew how to get back. SMH.

    I like a map.
     
  23. bambooshots macrumors 65816

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    #24
    As much as I like GPS nowadays, sometimes I do miss holding a map in one and steering wheel in the other, with the dome lights on, trying to figure out where I am. Dangerous, but it brings back some memories thinking about it.
     
  24. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

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    #25
    You were the one who brought up agricultural systems, and were given an explanation of how they achieve a great deal of accuracy(and why it's expensive). Why are you now saying that's not relevant when you were the one who broached the subject in the first place?
     

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