The Oath Keepers

mactastic

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
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Colly-fornia
Let's have a thought experiment here... Let's imagine that it was a Muslim organization that was recruiting members of the US military to potentially take up arms against fellow soldiers. What if a Muslim group, closely associated with mainstream Democratic political figures, was openly advocating armed insurrection against a government they felt was treading on their ideal of what America is. What if that Muslim group was stockpiling weapons and ammunition inside the US in anticipation of a day not far off when they would need to take up those arms against the US government?

What would the GOP response be? Well, remember how they reacted to the idea that Muslims were "infiltrating" Congressional offices as aides? The GOP had congresscritters making news conferences about it. Imagine how much more hysterical they would have been if CAIR had been stockpiling weapons, or advocating armed resistance to the government.

With that in mind... The Oath Keepers

His belief that that day is imminent has led Pray to a group called Oath Keepers, one of the fastest-growing "patriot" organizations on the right. Founded last April by Yale-educated lawyer and ex-Ron Paul aide Stewart Rhodes, the group has established itself as a hub in the sprawling anti-Obama movement that includes Tea Partiers, Birthers, and 912ers. Glenn Beck, Lou Dobbs, and Pat Buchanan have all sung its praises, and in December, a grassroots summit it helped organize drew such prominent guests as representatives Phil Gingrey and Paul Broun, both Georgia Republicans.

There are scores of patriot groups, but what makes Oath Keepers unique is that its core membership consists of men and women in uniform, including soldiers, police, and veterans. At regular ceremonies in every state, members reaffirm their official oaths of service, pledging to protect the Constitution—but then they go a step further, vowing to disobey "unconstitutional" orders from what they view as an increasingly tyrannical government.

Pray (who asked me to use his middle name rather than his first) and five fellow soldiers based at Fort Drum take this directive very seriously. In the belief that the government is already turning on its citizens, they are recruiting military buddies, stashing weapons, running drills, and outlining a plan of action.

...

Clad in an oversize black hoodie that hides his military physique, Pray sports an Army-issue buzz cut and is seriously inked (skulls, smoke, an eagle). His father kicked him out of the house at age 14. Two years later, after working jobs from construction to plumbing—"If it's blue collar, I've done it"—he tried to enlist. It wasn't long after 9/11, and he was hell-bent on revenge. The Army turned him down. Blaming the "THOR" tattooed across his fist, Pray tried to burn it off. On September 11, 2006, he approached the Army again and was accepted.

Now Pray is both a Birther and a Truther. He believes he is following an illegitimate, foreign-born president in a war on terror launched by a government plot—9/11. He admires soldiers like Army reservist Major Stefan Frederick Cook, who volunteered for a deployment last May and then sued to avoid it—claiming that Obama is not a natural-born citizen and is thus unfit for command. Pray himself had been eager to go to Iraq when his own unit deployed last June, but he smashed both knees falling from a crane rig and the injuries kept him stateside. In September, he was demoted from specialist to private first class—he'd been written up for ******** infractions, he claims, after seeking help for a drinking problem. His job on base involves operating and maintaining heavy machinery; the day before we met, he and his fellow "undeployables" had attached a snowplow to a Humvee, their biggest assignment in a while. He spends idle hours at the now-quiet base researching the New World Order and conspiracies about swine flu quarantine camps—and doing his best to "wake up" other soldiers.

...

Rhodes, 44, is a constitutional lawyer—his 2004 Yale Law School paper, "Solving the Puzzle of Enemy Combatant Status," won the school's award for best paper on the Bill of Rights. He's now working on a book tentatively titled We the Enemy: How Applying the Laws of War to the American People in the War on Terror Threatens to Destroy Our Constitutional Republic. Raised in the Southwest, Rhodes enlisted in the Army after high school, receiving an honorable discharge after he injured his spine during a night parachute jump. He enrolled at the University of Nevada and in 1998, after graduating, landed a job supervising interns for Congressman Ron Paul. Rhodes has also worked as a firearms instructor and a sculptor—for Vegas' MGM Grand hotel, he produced a fiberglass Minuteman statue—and has practiced law in small-town Montana ("Ivy League quality without Ivy League expense"). He writes a gun-rights column for SWAT magazine. He's a libertarian, staunch constitutionalist, and devout Christian.

It was while volunteering for Ron Paul's doomed presidential bid that Rhodes decided to abandon electoral politics in favor of grassroots organizing. As an undergrad, he had been fascinated by the notion that if German soldiers and police had refused to follow orders, Hitler could have been stopped. Then, in early 2008, SWAT received a letter from a retired colonel declaring that "the Constitution and our Bill of Rights are gravely endangered" and that service members, veterans, and police "is where they will be saved, if they are to be saved at all!"

Rhodes responded with a breathless column starring a despotic president, "Hitlery" Clinton, in her "Chairman Mao signature pantsuit." Would readers, he asked, obey orders from this "dominatrix-in-chief" to hold militia members as enemy combatants, disarm citizens, and shoot all resisters? If "a police state comes to America, it will ultimately be by your hands," he warned. You had better "resolve to not let it happen on your watch." He set up an Oath Keepers blog, asking soldiers and veterans to post testimonials. Word spread. Military officers offered assistance. A Marine Corps veteran invited Rhodes to speak at a local Tea Party event. Paul campaigners provided strategic advice. And by the time Rhodes arrived in Lexington to speak at a rally staged by a pro-militia group, a movement was afoot.

...

Rhodes has become a darling of right-wing pundits. In a column last October, Pat Buchanan predicted that "Brother Rhodes is headed for cable stardom." Glenn Beck has cited the group as a "phenomenal" example of the "patriot revival movement," while Lou Dobbs declared that its platform "should give solace and comfort to the left in this country." Conspiracy-radio king Alex Jones even put an Oath Keepers segment, including footage of the Lexington speech, on his hit DVD Fall of the Republic. "I can't stress enough how much your organization is scaring the globalists," he told Rhodes on his show.

...

Rhodes' vision is simple—"It's the Constitution, stupid." He views the founding blueprint the way fundamentalist Christians view the Bible. In Rhodes' America, sovereign states—"like little labs of freedom"—would have their own militias and zero gun restrictions. He would limit federal power to what's stated explicitly in the Constitution and Bill of Rights; any new federal law affecting the states would require a constitutional amendment. "If your state goes retarded," he says, "you can move to another state and vote with your feet."[oh noes, what will Sarah Palin say? -ed]

...

Disobeying orders can mean discharge or imprisonment. "You have every right to disobey an order if you think it is illegal," says Army spokesman Nathan Banks. "But you will face court-martial, and so help you God if you are wrong. Saying something isn't constitutional isn't going to fly."

A soldier like Charles Dyer, who in his July4Patriot persona advocated armed resistance against the government, could risk charges of treason. As a Marine sergeant based out of Camp Pendleton, Dyer posted videos to YouTube last year, his face half-covered with a skull bandana. "With the DHS blatantly calling patriots, veterans, and constitutionalists a threat, all that I have to say is, you're damn right we're a threat," he said in one. "We're a threat to anyone that endangers our rights and the Constitution of this republic...We're gathering in defense of our way of life." For a while, he ran a training compound in San Diego, teaching civilians his Marine combat skills.

Dyer, who with Rhodes' blessing represented Oath Keepers at an Oklahoma Tea Party rally on July 4, was charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice with uttering "disloyal" statements. He ultimately beat the charge, left the Marines, and reappeared unmasked on YouTube encouraging viewers to join him at his makeshift training area in Duncan, Oklahoma—"I'm sure the DHS will call it a terrorist training camp." In January, Dyer was arrested on charges of raping a seven-year-old girl. When sheriff's deputies raided his home, they found a Colt M-203 grenade launcher believed to have been stolen from a California military base. He now faces federal weapons charges and is being hailed by fringe militia groups like the American Resistance Movement as "the first POW of the second American Revolution."
The rise in right-wing militia groups was entirely predictable after the election of Barack Hussein Obama, a Democrat. But it's amazing to see how far the Republican party lets these folks go without censure. Openly advocating treason among the uniformed military? Advocating disloyalty to the US? And yet these people's praises are sung by some of the leading lights of the conservative movement. It's almost beyond belief that they could get away with this after 8 years of demanding the scalp of any Democrat who dared criticize Bush, but such is the power of the conservative media microphone.
 

jonbravo77

macrumors 6502a
Feb 20, 2008
999
23
Phoenix, AZ
We don't need to worry about extremist Muslims, we don't need to worry about shoe bombers or terrorists from over-seas, we need to worry about our own citizens who believe everything they are told, don't do actual research on their own and going out and stockpiling weapons to use against their fellow Americans.

I'm all for protecting the constitution, but when things are taken out of context and exaggerated such as the second amendment for the benefit of one group at the detriment of another that is what I have an issue with. This is not the 18th century, we are "supposed" to be more civilized. But looking at this story makes me wonder if certain people of a political following never fully grew out of the cave man days.

This is a scary story...
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
1,301
9,062
Toronto, Ontario
As far as I am concerned they are free to disobey orders and face a court marshal, thats why we have the process. At its core it doesn't sound entirely bad that servicemen want to keep their oaths, it wouldn't matter to me if they were muslim or not, the damning part is in the details as it seems to be an anti-anything Obama setup.

I have no problem with people stockpiling arms in case their second ammendment rights are taken away. Its clearly not in Obama's agenda though.
 

Eraserhead

macrumors G4
Nov 3, 2005
10,300
10,363
UK
Let's have a thought experiment here... Let's imagine that it was a Muslim organization that was recruiting members of the US military to potentially take up arms against fellow soldiers. What if a Muslim group, closely associated with mainstream Democratic political figures, was openly advocating armed insurrection against a government they felt was treading on their ideal of what America is.
I'd probably call them a terrorist group. I think the Republicans might actually spontaneously explode with faux anger.
 

mactastic

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
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Colly-fornia
The administration already felt the backlash of classifying veterans as extremists, I don't think they will make that mistake again.
sigh... Here we go again. Link please? Care to show us where the Obama administration classified veterans as extremists?

Of course we know how this will play out. You'll point to a right wing opinion source that makes such a claim on flimsy premises at best. You'll get all offended when I tell you that doesn't prove anything. You'll post another opinion piece or two and assert that "most people" see it this way. I'll again tell you that opinion isn't fact, you'll say something about how no proof is good enough for me, and that I'm only ignoring your mountain of overwhelming evidence because of my partisan blinders. And you'll never substantiate your original claim.
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
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Toronto, Ontario
sigh... Here we go again. Link please? Care to show us where the Obama administration classified veterans as extremists?

Of course we know how this will play out. You'll point to a right wing opinion source that makes such a claim on flimsy premises at best. You'll get all offended when I tell you that doesn't prove anything. You'll post another opinion piece or two and assert that "most people" see it this way. I'll again tell you that opinion isn't fact, you'll say something about how no proof is good enough for me, and that I'm only ignoring your mountain of overwhelming evidence because of my partisan blinders. And you'll never substantiate your original claim.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/napolitano.apology/

I am sure she was apologizing for the heck of it. ;) I got it from CNN so you wouldn't pull the bias card.
 

kavika411

macrumors 6502a
Jan 8, 2006
617
3
Alabama
What if that Muslim group was stockpiling weapons and ammunition inside the US in anticipation of a day not far off when they would need to take up those arms against the US government? What would the GOP response be?... Openly advocating treason among the uniformed military? Advocating disloyalty to the US?
I'm talkin' about friendship. I'm talkin' about character. I'm talkin' about... Hell, Mactastic, I ain't embarrassed to use the word - I'm talkin' about hypocrisy.

And let's call a spade a spade. There ain't nothin' - and I do mean nothin' - worse than a politician or political position that is hypocritical. Nothin'. Nuff said.
 

Rt&Dzine

macrumors 6502a
Oct 8, 2008
736
5
The administration already felt the backlash of classifying veterans as extremists, I don't think they will make that mistake again.
Actions speak louder than words. The previous administration and their henchmen treated the veterans far worse. Look at what they did to Kerry, McCain, Cleland, etc. And cut veteran benefits, etc.

I'm talkin' about friendship. I'm talkin' about character. I'm talkin' about... Hell, Mactastic, I ain't embarrassed to use the word - I'm talkin' about hypocrisy.

And let's call a spade a spade. There ain't nothin' - and I do mean nothin' - worse than a politician or political position that is hypocritical. Nothin'. Nuff said.
Are you referring to the Republicans?
 

mcrain

macrumors 68000
Feb 8, 2002
1,768
11
Illinois
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/napolitano.apology/

I am sure she was apologizing for the heck of it. ;) I got it from CNN so you wouldn't pull the bias card.
Did you even read what was said, or did you bother to even note what the report said that the veterans groups were bothered by?

No one, and I mean no one ever classified veterans as extremist groups; the report was about extremist groups that would target veterans coming back from the Iraq and Afghan wars.

Not veterans are extremists... but veterans are targeted by extremists.

Geez.

That being said, veterans don't want to appear as though they are more likely to be targetted or are susceptible to it because of some defect, so they were offended. Thus, the apology.

Next time you buy into some wackjob argument of the right, read what actually happened and make up your own mind.

Do you really think the administration was classifying veterans as extremists? Give me a break, that's just silly.

(edit) For me, hypocracy is bad on both sides of the isle.
 

Zombie Acorn

macrumors 65816
Feb 2, 2009
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9,062
Toronto, Ontario
Did you even read what was said, or did you bother to even note what the report said that the veterans groups were bothered by?

No one, and I mean no one ever classified veterans as extremist groups; the report was about extremist groups that would target veterans coming back from the Iraq and Afghan wars.

Not veterans are extremists... but veterans are targeted by extremists.

Geez.

That being said, veterans don't want to appear as though they are more likely to be targetted or are susceptible to it because of some defect, so they were offended. Thus, the apology.

Next time you buy into some wackjob argument of the right, read what actually happened and make up your own mind.

Do you really think the administration was classifying veterans as extremists? Give me a break, that's just silly.

(edit) For me, hypocracy is bad on both sides of the isle.
LOL. Yes of course, she didn't mean that veterans were more likely to be involved/fall into extremist behavior (nevermind the fact that we were concentrating mainly on republican service men coming back from the wars), she meant that they were going to be victims of extremists trying to convert them :eek: in that case they should have blared the warning signs all around America! They are attacking our service men, ohnoes!

Give me a break. Some of the Obama administration, especially Napalitano, are about the greasiest politicians that I can come up with.
 

184550

Guest
May 8, 2008
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From a Google search for 'Mother Jones'

A bimonthly magazine of investigative journalism that exposes the evils of the corporate world, the government, and the mainstream media.
Sounds impartial.:rolleyes:

Glad I checked the link/ source and didn't waste my time reading that trash.
 

184550

Guest
May 8, 2008
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mactastic

macrumors 68040
Original poster
Apr 24, 2003
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Colly-fornia
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/16/napolitano.apology/

I am sure she was apologizing for the heck of it. ;) I got it from CNN so you wouldn't pull the bias card.
From the article YOU posted:
The report said extremist groups may try to attract veterans returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It also said extremists also may use the recession and the election of the nation's first African-American president to recruit members.
I don't see anything there suggesting that veterans are now classified as extremists, do you? Care to point out exactly which part of the report actually changes the classification of veterans to extremists?

More fail from you...


(nevermind the fact that we were concentrating mainly on republican service men coming back from the wars)
Link please. You're going to have to back up your slurs from now on...

From a Google search for 'Mother Jones'



Sounds impartial.:rolleyes:

Glad I checked the link/ source and didn't waste my time reading that trash.
Are you denying the existence of this group?
 

Teh Don Ditty

macrumors G4
Jan 15, 2007
11,308
5
Maryland
Yes I googled it ,I also had to google RNC and DNC,those acronyms may be familiar to you but most of the world wouldn't know,it makes a post more comprehensible if you lose the jargon.
I find that hard to believe. I've seen you around the PRSI a lot and you should know what those mean.

I mean honestly, I know what BNP stands for when I walk into a thread about British politics.