The Pirate Party

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by GermanyChris, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. GermanyChris macrumors 601

    GermanyChris

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    #1
    So it's election season in Germany right now so all the political placards are up with the usual suspects CDU, SDP, FDP, Grün, but this year here there is Pirate party placards. I know in Germany there is proportional representation and coalition governments but I wonder if this party could succeed in the US? It seems to be aimed at the younger folks which seem to be swaying elections unlike in the past.

    I'd be nice to see a real viable 3rd party.
     
  2. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #2
    No the system is set up in the US so that only 2 parties can have any real chance at winning anything. The closest we will ever get to a third party is if the Republican or Democratic party implodes and a new party rises up to replace it after a decade or so of mostly single party rule.
     
  3. GermanyChris thread starter macrumors 601

    GermanyChris

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    #3
    We seem to be on the verge of both parties serving no one. I think the only people our current parties actually appeal to are older Gen x and back.

    'tis pleasant food for thought though.
     
  4. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #4
    I am pre-Gen-X and most of the people I know in my age group are not really big fans of either party. I have taken to favor the elder-gods party: Cthulhu for president – why vote for a lesser evil?
     
  5. TheHateMachine macrumors 6502a

    TheHateMachine

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    #5
    I could find myself backing Cthulhu, his plan for the unethical treatment of all human life intrigues me.
     
  6. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #6
    Your puny ethics mean nothing to the elder gods.
     
  7. dec. Suspended

    dec.

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    #7
    I've lived in Germany and Canada most of my life and the two-party system seems very bizarre to me, besides the extremely limited choice in general, I think it also divides people even more so than a multiple party system plus having the option of coalitions of two or more parties where different influences come together like the Liberal/Green Coalition in Germany is definitely an advantage as well.
     
  8. malman89 macrumors 68000

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    #8
    Nope. Third parties are set up to fail.

    Also us young people (24 here) are passionate on Twitter/Tumblr/pick your poison and useless Change.org petitions, but we are too disenfranchised by the political system to give a damn about voting (outside of Democrats in 2008) for the most part.

    Plus any independent/outsider one could vote would probably be unable to really do anything/make a mark or just succumb to one side or another of the massive political/lobbyist/corporate machine known as government.
     
  9. GermanyChris thread starter macrumors 601

    GermanyChris

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    #9
    My intent isn't to critique either system just to probe a bit but I agree forcing coalitions is a good thing.

    Young folks (of which I consider myself) voted in droves in '08 the pirate party seem right up their alley, something they can get behind and actually go off and change the world with.
     
  10. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #10
    America has the party of NO(Reps) and the party of SLOW(Dems). We need a party of ???(Getting things done).
     
  11. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #11
    it isn't so much that the system is set up that way, it's more that most people simply wont vote for any other party other than the main two.........people have unfortunately latched onto the idea that "you're wasting your vote" if you vote for a different party
     
  12. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #12
    There is the great difference between the two systems, number of political parties is totally irrelevant if they stand no chance to winning at the ballot box.

    In the Netherlands we have 22 political parties of which 18 sit in this parliament 2 form the government. This is only possible because of proportional representation, and always favours a coalition outcome of any election.
     
  13. 4JNA, Aug 30, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013

    4JNA macrumors 68000

    4JNA

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    #13
    this is what i'm used to hearing. when i talk about it with my dad (retired) he'll always bring up 'Nader', 'Perot', etc as examples. a lot of the smaller 'fringe' groups don't seem to do themselves any favors by picking some of the people they put forward as candidates.

    Nader was an interesting guy with public interest at the core, but business and lobbyists would never let him anywhere close to an elected office. Perot i liked and had a small hope of him succeeding, but watched that one come and go as well.
     
  14. sviato macrumors 68020

    sviato

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    #14
    I don't think the current political systems have a chance at change until the current younger generation, that is more progressive, is older and more involved in politics (probably in 20-30 years). Unfortunately, we kind of need all of the older-fashioned politicians and administrators to retire, with their ideas, in order to make way for this generation and hopefully some change.
     
  15. Cox Orange, Sep 1, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2013

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #15
    If it is the fact that they are representing/targeting at younger voters, that you are aiming at, lets speculate a bit about the chances for such a party in the US, based on guessed numbers.

    Am I right that they would have to win at least one state to go to the white house? Then we would have to find the state, that has the highest number of young people, lets say up to 30 years old (in Germany Pirate party voters would be considered 18-30 years old). - Edit: someone help me out with numbers?
    Now imagine by what numbers the rest of the state's residents will be shared under the two other parties.

    What would have to be considered, too, is the social group they aim at, the age aside. (i.e. education, income etc.)

    The Pirates are up for election for the EU parliament, too. I do not know, how much their program differs from country to country (or EU-state to EU-state, if you prefer), but in Germany they want something very unamerican. They want, that everybody gets paid a "bedingungsloses Grundeinkommen" (base income without any pre-requirements). That is 1000,-EUR for everyone, no matter if he works or not.
    Their argument is, if everyone gets money without having to work for it, everyone will want to work, because he will feel more free in his job (also everybody would be able to work in the "profession" he thinks he is best at. That maybe art that no one buys as well). Plus, you do not need to work, if you are fine with the 1000,-EUR. They think, everyone will want to have more money and will offer their work more willingly and get paid on top of that.
    One reasonable positive fact they derive from it, is that you need less bureaucracy, because you do not have a large number of different cases to handle with (at the moment unemployed/unable people all get different money depending on special circumstances. If you are offered a job and you reject to take it, you get less aid, second rejection results in lowering the aid further).

    I think you all know, what the problem is, that comes to mind directly. Who would work, if his job did generate not much more money anyway. Who will do the dirty work? (The Pirates say, people will get so bored, that they will start to work, although they get the 1000,-EUR/month for free.)

    On the subject of coalitions: while you seem to want more variety in the states, Germans would opt for a "big coalition" of the both big parties CDU (30-40%) and SPD (30%), according to recent surveys. I won't go into detail for the reasons or so, because I don't want to go too off topic.

    PS: GermanyChris, you forgot "Die Linke", or do they not even try do make an election campaign in Bayern, because the CSU (local devision of the CDU) is so strong and it is considered a conservative state anyway?
    Did you see the TV-Duell, tonight? I do not want to steal the thread, but I am interested how the behaviour of Merkel and Steinbrück appears to "neutral" people.
     
  16. GermanyChris thread starter macrumors 601

    GermanyChris

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    #16

    I haven't seen an "Die Linke" placards this season in my little area of Stuttgart..

    I also saw no Piraten when I was home in Bavaria this weekend.

    In my little sphere at home in Bavaria everyone seems to be SPD, here in Stuttgart people I run into seem to be FDP or Grun. Merkel seems to be while not popular at least acceptable.

    Bavaria and Baden Wurtemburg seem so different yet their economies are much the same..

    What are your thoughts on election season?
     
  17. iMikeT macrumors 68020

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    #17
    Will Pirate Party representatives have an "ARR" next to their names?
     
  18. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502

    Bug-Creator

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    #18
    Guess who has the most placards up around here (Hagen) ?
    The MLPD !!

    Yeah that is Marxist-Leninist-Party-Deutschland :eek: Not that they would get anymore than 0.1% of the actual vote, but still seem going strong around here.
     
  19. AhmedFaisal, Sep 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2013
  20. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #20
    Every ballot I seen includes a variety of party choices. Isn't it just a matter of voters supporting these parties? If not, what steps need to be taken to level the playing field?

    Political Parties in the U.S.
     
  21. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #21
    Putting in proportional representation would help, as would public financing for elections since that would keep the major parties from having such a large money advantage. Also change the rules for getting onto ballots so that minor parties don't have to spend all the money they raise trying to get on the ballot instead of on advertising. Allowing third parties into presidential debates would go a long way to helping voters find out about them and become willing to vote for them.
     
  22. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

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    #22
    pretty much
     
  23. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #23
    I have no problem with the general idea of proportional representation. It's the details that might cause some issues. I also agree with public financing of elections. Anytime money is involved the process is corrupted. A good role for the Federal government, restricting the amount of money spent. I also would like a limited election season, starting 6 month prior to the election, not 3 frack'n years before.

    Thought so. :)
     
  24. Cox Orange, Sep 4, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2013

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #24
    Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg:
    I'd say, the impression that everyone in Bavaria is for SPD, might come up, if you mostly visit big cities, since people living in cities seem to vote less conservative and are more open anyway.
    Then there is another thing, the very popular Mayor of Munich, who has been elected and reelected several times in Munich, is now running for being Ministerpräsident of Bayern (something like "governor" for other readers). He is very popular. I think he can get a better result for the SPD, but still the CSU, will be almost have the majority alone (like all the years before). Recent polls say that, too http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/landtage/index.htm

    Baden-Württemberg on the whole has usually always been a CDU state (except the first election after the war, it was FDP).

    If people now are for Grünen that might be still from the last election (where they wanted to end the "reign" of the last CDU administration, following the events of Stuttgart21, the governors corruption, misused police force,...). I can not understand, why they are for FDP, though. I guess, that Stuttgart has a higher percentage of (younger) people with better income and also a lot intellectuals. These might have been the kind you ran into(?). They will vote either for those that they think are the most credible ones (Green) or those that they think will keep up the industry (FDP). How that translates to the Bundestag election, I don't know. People in B-W are special anyway. They are known to be very conservative, but also open-minded and inventive.

    Also the Green clientele has changed anyway, they have changed from Hippies to bohemians, which fits to the cities of B-W.

    As for the campaigns etc.
    This year I find, that there is very few done (it is what the media says, too). They started campaigns very late this season. Where I live, there are very few placards. The most by the CDU candidate for our county, though we are traditionally SPD.
    Media said it might have been a strategy, that Merkel did not react to anything. Question remains, why the other parties did not "attack". These days it also seems that voters do not like it, when politicians attack each others. They want them to be fair, use arguments and maybe the campaign managers/coaches did join the bandwagon. But then again there are those, that say, everything is boring, there are no differences in the parties, politicians were pale, they wanted them to swear at each others (like in the before the 90ies).

    Also, I find the media partly seems to even feed the above topos (no differences, etc.) and singing along "politicians lie anyway". But on the same TV-channels there are other shows, that do a good job in showing the differences and ask the right questions.
    Concerning Steinbrück, they seem to find it nice to do it tabloid style, creating an image, that is not fully right (some minor gaffe that they inflate), along using pictures of him, were he looks grumpy, which he sometimes is, but both Merkel and Steinbrück have some sort of subtle humour, too, indeed.

    public reception of the parties:
    Making a decision which party to vote for is partly hard, because I think both Merkel and Steinbrück (would) do their job in some sort of good way. Also I find, we have the blessing that all of the parties will more or less do their job seriously. The ideas of how the aims are to achieve might be different, but I assume they all really do want the best for Germany. (Except the FDP, who always acts like a "wh*re of the rich". (Edit: reasons deleted) They strongly believe in economic deregulation (I will not use the Capitalism, to not compromise myself as a dubious person). While this is a viewpoint you can have, they do it very selective. For some reason they do not deregulate and cut taxes for small enterprises. They are somewhat like strict US-Republicans, without the religion.

    (Edit: deleted elaboration of FDP's mistakes, that let the top German solar tech enterprises go bankrupt.)

    On the common sense (well, if it really is), that all parties have the same program and there is no difference: I highly speak against that. I find there are big differences. The "TV-Duell" has shown that, too, as an example.

    Steinbrück is not quiet what looks like a left person, but he seems to stand up for his party's programm. I find with the ideas of the SPD and the reason of Steinbrück (or Merkel) it could get more social for people, without going ideologically crazy.

    Conservative voters do feel they lost their "old" CDU, which is because Merkel adapts the ideas of the moderate left, step by step. That also contributes to the public view, that there is no differences in the parties. But I say, in some aspects, there is not only a difference in details (e.g. see ideas on taxes).

    (Edit: deleted part about the differences of the parties, which was actually a lengthy summary of their agenda/programs).

    What is ARR?
    On "Die Linke". I find Gysi isn't even the problem (well from a moral standpoint the unknown StaSi background is a problem). I think he is just rational enough to know what is possible in real life politics. But there remain hardcore communists (scientific use here) and weirdos.

    On Greece, etc. Well, I'd say, if we loose our money anyway we should go the investment route. CDU/FDP wants Greece to save on everything, which the opposition says breaks their economy even more. The SPD/Grüne/Linke want something like a Marshall Plan. I feel unable to understand all details and see the big picture of the problems, but it feels that the latter one might be the one with a small chance for us (like, if they get stronger and then buy our products again and so they strengthen our economy again).

    On NSA. Well, I admit, it's the nature of secret services to gather information and do that against the rules of other countries. One can say, that this is not "nice" under friends, but on the other side, it seems the US thinks the German secret service doesn't do its job well enough and they argument, that they even prevented acts of terror in Germany. I really have no idea. I want freedom, but on the other hand I understand there has to be some sort of surveillance. (At least they could close the facility in Wiesbaden...).
    It is (as you say) not only the NSA, the BND "googled" a study about terrorism, which a professor had published online. The SEK stormed his house at 6 am, waking him up in his pants, whith guns pointed at him.

    End note:

    I think most topics are so detailed, that one can only sort of develop a feeling to what he leans more. Understanding the arguments, but not being able to fully judge/see the consequences. What comes into the decision might also be the sympathy for a single person (although I know, we do not elect the chancellor).

    What I found interesting on TV. People who first said they would vote for CDU, said they would vote for SPD, after they had talks with politicians from both sides. The reason was not the concepts (I mean, e.g. rising taxes might as well go wrong), but that they believed the SPD had explained how they want to finance/achieve things and CDU had just said, what they want to do, but not how they want to pay it.
     

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