The Problem with Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, May 13, 2007.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1
    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2536864.ece

    Emphasis mine. How did someone with so little idea get so much influence? Does he not realise that "honour" is no longer an option?
     
  2. clevin macrumors G3

    clevin

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    #2
    I guess he reads to much snow white, and thinks American PPl will buy the disney story.

    Another classic case of stupidity trump reality, these ppl have no brains. and look at bagdad in 2002.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #3
    Islam, thats the problem in Iraq. These guys are fighting over religious s... thats thousands of years old.
     
  4. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    How do you explain the fact that they weren't "fighting over religious s..." before Bush and Cheney upset the apple cart, then? Sunni, Shia and Christians seem to have managed to cohabit without wholesale slaughter for fifteen hundred years until we came along and blew the whole arrangement. "Mission Accomplished".
     
  5. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #5
    Essentially for the same reason Serbia, Albania, Kosovo, and the rest, were not fighting when Tito was in power. The history of the Middle East shows that the rulers were autocrats. Did anyone in our government actually believe we were going to go to the 'cradle of civilization' and perform a social, political and economic paradigm shift? Were we really going to make them slap their foreheads and exclaim, "Geez, how could we have missed this for 5000 years? Thanks for showing us the light".

    What arrogance we have, but it pales when compared with our dishonesty and stupidity.
     
  6. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

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    #6
    Yeah except the British were the idiots that decided to put the regional divison smack in the middle of the country. Idiots. Before then, they were seperated and thus calmed much more since they didnt have to worry about one religion controlling the other sect through gov't.
     
  7. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

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    #7
    Last time I checked, they are not fighting currently either. You need a strong dictator if you want to have them all in the same county. Split up the countries along ethnic lines and you have a much calmer situation. You know like the turks did!
     
  8. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #8
    Agreed on all points. I actually thought the US did a decent job in Kosovo. It did not appear like the situation was going to resolve itself. So, a quick show of force, a peacekeeping effort, and let them try to resolve their own problems over time.
     
  9. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #9
    I suspect that Buch, Cheney, and the gang had the same thought about Iraq
     
  10. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #10
    Religion is just an excuse. The problems are much deeper than that, and this administration was blind to see it when they went charging in for reasons that had nothing to do with what they said they were. With no planning, no exit strategy, not enough troops, not enough equipment, etc. The fact that they didn't seem to realize the difference between Sunnis and Shia didn't help, and now Al Qaida is there, further gaining support because even though they don't like them, they have a common enemy in us. But religion is only the tip of the iceberg, used by the angry and disenfranchised to justify the violence we caused.

    There are other areas that are far more peaceful that are filled with Islamic people, just as there are violent regions where Christianity or other religions (or a lack thereof) are.
     
  11. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

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    #11
    LOL. Look more closely into kosovo. America attacked the side that comitted the fewest atrocities and then said WELL DUH OUR ATTACK IS GOING TO CAUSE AN ETHICAL GENOCIDE. The Albanians killed three times as many individuals precluding the American/UN/NATO bombing spree than Serbians. Only after we put the beatdown on the Serbs did they start kiling the Albanians in outrageous numbers. Every claim hurled agasint Milosovic at the World Court were for items AFTER the bombing spree. Surprising? Should the bombing resulted to quell atrocities not start them? Also.... the CIA at the time was backing terrorists in Albania. Im not exactly sure how fair and DECENT that whole job was.
     
  12. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #12
    Woah. Links?
     
  13. Chef Medeski macrumors 6502a

    Chef Medeski

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    #13
    Wiki
    Legitimacy? at Wiki
    KLA at Wiki


    "Some critics have accused the coalition of leading a war in Kosovo under the false pretense of genocide.[13] President Clinton of the United States, and his administration, were accused of inflating the number of Kosovar Albanians killed by Serbians.[14] Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen, giving a speech, said, "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide."[15] On CBS' Face the Nation Cohen claimed, "We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing...They may have been murdered."[16] Clinton, citing the same figure, spoke of "at least 100,000 (Kosovar Albanians) missing".[17] Later, talking about Serbian elections, Clinton said, "they're going to have to come to grips with what Mr. Milošević ordered in Kosovo...They're going to have to decide whether they support his leadership or not; whether they think it's OK that all those tens of thousands of people were killed...".[18] Clinton also claimed, in the same press conference, that "NATO stopped deliberate, systematic efforts at ethnic cleansing and genocide."[19] Clinton compared the events of Kosovo to the Holocaust. CNN reported, "Accusing Serbia of 'ethnic cleansing' in Kosovo similar to the genocide of Jews in World War II, an impassioned President Clinton sought Tuesday to rally public support for his decision to send U.S. forces into combat against Yugoslavia, a prospect that seemed increasingly likely with the breakdown of a diplomatic peace effort."[20] Clinton's State Department also claimed Serbian troops had committed genocide. The New York Times reported, "the Administration said evidence of 'genocide' by Serbian forces was growing to include 'abhorrent and criminal action' on a vast scale. The language was the State Department's strongest yet in denouncing Yugoslav President Slobodan Milošević."[21] The State Department also gave the highest estimate of dead Albanians. The New York Times reported, "On April 19, the State Department said that up to 500,000 Kosovar Albanians were missing and feared dead."[22]"

    "Some opponents of the NATO war claim that real reasons for bombing have nothing to do with the proclaimed protection of Albanian civilians. They point out that before the bombing, number of dead was less than 2000, which included around 500 Serbian civilians and police and 1500 Albanian civilians and KLA members in more than one year of conflict. Total number of displaced people was 100,000 before the bombing. This has escalated to a total of 10,000 dead - estimated 6-7,000 Albanians and 3-4,000 Serbians killed in the war. The number of refugees topped 800,000 during the war, mostly Albanian but also 100,000 Serbian Kosovars. After the war, Albanian refugees returned, but more than 250,000 Serbian refugees fled KLA terror, and have never returned to Kosovo."

    "According to reliable sources, KLA representatives had already met with American, British, and Swiss intelligence agencies in 1996, and possibly "several years earlier".[9] In the same year, a British weekly newspaper, The European, stated that "German civil and military intelligence services have been involved in training and equipping the rebels with the aim of cementing German influence in the Balkan area."[10] Former senior adviser to the German parliament Matthias Küntzel proved later on that his country secret diplomacy had been instrumental in helping the KLA since its creation.[11] According to The Sunday Times of London, "American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO's bombing of Yugoslavia" [2]."

    "In 1998 western interest increased and the Serbian authorities was forced to sign a unilateral cease-fire and partial retreat. Under an agreement led by Richard Holbrooke, OSCE observers moved into Kosovo to monitor the ceasefire, while Yugoslav military forces partly pulled out of Kosovo. However, the ceasefire was systematically broken shortly thereafter by KLA forces, which again provoked harsh counterattacks by the Serbs. On 16 January 1999, the bodies of 45 Albanian civilians were found in the town of Racak. The victims had been executed by Serb forces....This triggered a 78-day NATO campaign in 1999....An estimated 10,000-12,000 ethnic Albanians and 3,000 Serbs are believed to have been killed during the conflict. Some 3,000 people are still missing, of which 2,500 are Albanian, 400 Serbs and 100 Roma." Before 45 killed. After thousands. Excellent job, NATO!

    So yeah often sources will cite the amount of violence in all of 1999 as pre-text to the NATO bombing in March, 1999. Did you catch that, you have to look close. They are citing events after the bombing as pre-text for the bombing.

    Realistically the US heavily backed the KLA and it seems they were always going to go after Serbia. Regardless of atrocities. The death of 45 albanians hardly seems a massacre compared to the thousands of Iraqis Saddam killed in the late 80s while Bush touted him as a key ally in the Middle-Easter world. Yeah.... disparities a bit? Maybe the US should have tried to stop Saddam from killing millions of Iranians and Iraqis with chemical weaons (ILLEGAL) instead of starting a really unjusitifiable bombing campaign without UN approval (approval was vetoed by Russia and China)(actually funny story, when Iran went to the UN to complain about the gasings. The US vetoed the investigation. Oh and when the Kurds came, they were sent away at US beckoning's that they are not a nation). So its all fine an dandy for the US to cover up clear violations of the UN charter when they want. But when they want to bomb someone, the UN cant stop the m. They can find legitimacy in even NATO to do what they want. With little grounds of proof.


    Oh and... US backed a muslim terrorist organization!!!

    Ironies...
     

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