The REAL difference between Liberals and Conservatives!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Sep 19, 2008.

  1. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #1
  2. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #2
    I agree w/the video, and have mentioned a couple of times here, that as long as people's goal in the political process is to make sure their 'team' wins and the other 'team' loses we are screwed. It's not about winning and losing it's about using government (and knowing when to not use government) to solve problems.


    Lethal
     
  3. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    I think you (and the video) make an excellent point. Until people on both sides stop thinking that they're the only ones out to do good, and the people on the other side of the equation are "evil", nothing will ever change.

    People (on these boards I've noticed it a ton) tend to think that only one side cares about poor people, only one side cares about fighting terrorism, only one side cares about the life of unborn children, only one side cares about x, only one side cares about y. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Conservatives care about poor people, they just don't think government handouts and feeding the dependency on government is good for most. Liberals care about unborn children, they just don't think it trumps the mother's "right" to her body.

    What we have, is a disagreement about HOW to fix problems. Both sides have similar definitions of right and wrong, both sides are well-intentioned and believe fervently that THEY are right and the OTHERS are wrong.

    The truth is that there is a balance that needs to be found. Hopefully it can be found with less bickering, less hatred, less attacking, and degrading of other view points.
     
  4. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    Agathon, Leekohler, solvs, .Andy, Ugg, 'es, what do you guys think about this video? I think this is a good constructive topic to discuss instead of always jut pointing fingers and calling the other side of the equation "evil."

    Do you agree?
     
  5. Agathon macrumors 6502a

    Agathon

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    I watched it and I think the guy is drawing the wrong conclusion. His problem, ironically enough is that he's a liberal and is acting the way that liberals usually do – looking for consensus.

    The three major differences have long been noted.

    It's half true to say that liberals are anti-authoritarian. Some are ridiculously anti-authoritarian beyond all reason, but in general the modern liberal rule is that authority stands in need of justification and must be questioned. The giving of one person authority over another is for liberals to be avoided except where necessary. Yes, we know that conservatives are more likely to be authoritarians. That was established a long time ago. This is a problem with his analysis. Authoritarians listen only to their authorities. They are extremely hard to reason with if you are trying to say something that their authority tells them is wrong. That's the rock on which this man's liberal approach fails.

    The purity stuff is kind of boring and does not really make much of a difference. One thing that conservatives do have here is that excessive promiscuity causes social problems. Again, liberals would say that social rules about such things stand in need of justification (rather than the reverse). It's just that they haven't done a good job of thinking it through.

    It's the group identity stuff that is the most disturbing. We simply cannot afford this sort of behaviour any more. It was merely a nuisance when the best people could do to resolve such disputes was to manually dismember each other, but now we simply can't afford such conflict any more. Either we suppress tribal behaviour or it will be the end of us. In practice, this means trying to create a global community based on law, which will require a more egalitarian distribution than we currently have (or the poorer nations just won't sign up). Ask yourself where the political forces that oppose a world community and promote extreme tribalism or nationalism (in the US it is called "patriotism", but it's the same thing) are coming from. It ain't the liberal side (the minutemen are a good example).

    I really don't think that there is anything to be done about this, but then again, I'm the happy pessimist, so I'm probably the wrong person to ask.

    Cheers for the video

    Peace

    A.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    I haven't had time to watch it. Unfortunately, I'm usually at work when on these boards, and watching videos just isn't an option most of the time. Is there a transcript? If not, I'll try to get to it when I'm at a cafe.
     
  7. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    I would recommend waiting until you can view it with Audio. He uses visuals a lot and some of the content probably wouldn't translate well through text-only.

    I also wanted to suggest to everyone to sign up for the TED Talks HD podcast through iTunes. Some amazing content on those, all the time. Some of it about politics, some about technology, some design... and ALL of it is very interesting.
     
  8. jplan2008 macrumors regular

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    First we have born again Christians, now we have born again conservatives. (you should read about him going to India and deciding he was going to accept conservatives) I'm not sure the science (how he goes about labeling liberals and conservatives, and not using random samples) or the conclusions offer much. "You're wrong if you tell people they're wrong" is part of his message in the video. The stuff he's written is even less logical.
     
  9. és: macrumors 6502a

    és:

    #9
    I watched the video when you first posted it. It didn't really do much for me or break down any barriers, so I didn't reply. It's nothing new in what he's saying in this video.

    Conservatism and liberalism are just different ways of looking at something, it's not about good and evil. The problem is where you have deranged individuals hiding behind ideologies to do evil things.

    Is Bush really conservative? Is racking up massive debts from the bank of China to fund wars really a conservative thing to do? Politics is far more complicated than liberal or conservative.
     
  10. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    This is probably the first (and potentially the last) time I'll ever say this to you 'es. ;) But, you're EXACTLY RIGHT! Spot on, I agree with you 100%.

    As to Bush, you're exactly right. Not conservative by ANY stretch of the imagination. He's increased the size of government way more than Clinton ever did. He's attempted nation building way more than Clinton ever did. He suspended the constitutional Habeus Corpus to make us all "safer".

    That's what makes me so made about people is that they see things as black and white. They see Bush, and say, wow... I hate conservatives! It happens on both sides of the political spectrum, and it's horribly unproductive.

    If you ask me, it's all a product of our two-party system. People are given two options. White or black. Red or blue. There is no in between. No party that fits their views closer. No alternatives. Until we break the monopoly we will continue down the same path.
     
  11. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #11
    Of course, however I'm in a unique position. I consider myself the be neither conservative nor liberal. I'm all over the place on many different issues. I'm gay, so I'm for equal marriage rights, etc. which is automatically labeled a "liberal" position. On the other hand, I'm pro gun ownership rights and against smoking bans, which are labeled "conservative" positions. I'm also for some form of universal health care. I vote for both Republicans and Democrats. Though lately, due to how the Republicans have been behaving, I'm voting for fewer of them.

    There is evil on both sides of the aisle. There is no doubt about that. Right now we're in a very unbalanced period, and it's obviously been a bad period.
     
  12. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #12
    One of the things I thought was interesting from the talk was the speaker's website yourmorals.org, which contains a number of quizzes so that you can see where you fall (theoretically) between conservative and liberal ideals.

    The interesting thing about the TED Conference talk was how certain specific ideals can build up to a general "theory" of the mind and by understanding these differences, we can more easily understand where there other political side may be coming from.
    Like all generalizations some people won't be covered, but it's an interesting way to think.

    Also, as others have mentioned, we have to be aware that politicians prey on our ideals and use our distinct prejudices to gain power. Bush pretending to be a "compassionate conservative" was just an artifice.
     
  13. Chundles macrumors G4

    Chundles

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    #13
    In Australia the Liberals ARE the conservatives.
     
  14. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #14
    I have been away for awhile, and haven't watched all of it yet, but so far, it's nothing we haven't already discussed. But it makes the same mistakes you often do. It makes a very gray area seem more black and white than it is. Maybe it gets better towards the end, but the very fact that you are trying to say we just call everything we disagree with evil (something I don't believe I've ever done) tells me that if it does, you missed that point. I've noted many a time I'm no fan of Obama, nor the Dems as a whole. Breaking it down, there are few I do like, and even then it's qualified. As a matter of fact, as I've also noted that like others, I have several conservative tendencies, being a critic of Clinton and former McCain supporter.

    The neocons these days are not conservative. Not in the least. They should be embarrassed even trying to call themselves that. And, like Clinton, Obama is far from the "radical far left" some may want to paint him with. He's actually the 40th most liberal Senator. Not why I dislike him, but there are things I disagree with him on. Just that McCain is sliding further to the bad parts of the right, and with Palin, he's lost all support from me. Bush has been an absolute failure, and while the Dems are still nothing to write home about, they are the only viable alternative. I don't support libertarianism either, nor do I support any other party. So I will be voting for the Dems for the third time in my life (past 2 elections in '04 and '06 and now) purely as a vote against the GOP.

    I base my arguments on facts, not ideology, and right now they don't favor the neocons. When they don't favor the Dems, especially if the GOP finds it's way back to the center, I'm sure I will turn my criticisms towards the other spectrum the way I did before. You don't seem to make fact based arguments, and can't seem to tell the difference between opinion and fact. Simply stating something as a fact, especially when it can be disputed with actual fact, doesn't make it so. Complaining that we're all "socialist, liberal, far left", whatevers that are out to get people we disagree with as you seemed to be doing in another thread recently doesn't help your case. Sure, there are times when that can happen. But we are not all the same, nor should we be treated as such. No one else speaks for me here, no do I for anyone else. You lumped us all in together up there, and it makes my point while disputing yours.

    I don't know what your definition of constructive debate is, but looking over many of your posts, it didn't seem you were interested in such things. Just as you seem to think we're all pointing fingers and calling the other side evil all the time while defending "our side" all the time. Just as you equate anyone who criticizes our leadership as a hatred of our country and/or it's people, even after it was pointed out to you that that was not the case. Sure, this video makes some good points, but it's a simplified version of how things really are. As shown many a time, we are not a Red State/Blue State society. We're a purple state. I will criticize a conservative when they are wrong. I will criticize a liberal when they're wrong (just ask stevento). I will criticize a libertarian when they're wrong. Especially when they use a right wing talking point that's factually incorrect. It's all about facts with me.

    But then, I'm a Leo and an ISTP, so what do I know :rolleyes: (in case you can't tell, being sarcastic about the typecasting).
     
  15. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #15
    I went to the site and did some of the surveys. They were pretty inaccurate. Many of the situations described were too open-ended for me to really be able to "strongly agree" or "strongly disagree". So many of them were relative to whatever might actually be going on in a real-world situation. Like solvs said, it's a bit too black and white to be in any way helpful. But hey- at least they're trying, and I applaud the effort.
     

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