The Soviet Union built perhaps the worlds biggest wall...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by PracticalMac, May 31, 2019.

  1. PracticalMac macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #1
    The Soviet Union via its proxies built perhaps the worlds biggest wall, what Churchill called the "Iron curtain". While most was fencing some areas had concrete, and large parts of included deadly traps like mines.

    This wall was to keep people in, fleeing to the west and a less oppressive life.

    That did not stop millions from successfully escaping (and the hundreds of thousands who died in failure).

    2 of them escaped in 1965. After temporary asylum in Belgium they where welcomed with open arms to the USA to start a new life in 1966.

    Prosperity, safety, self determination are incredibly powerful, the dangers along the route are minor speed bumps (unless it kills them) for their goals. My parents knew their family will suffer, but the relatives did support their decision when they found out later.

    1000 migrants openly broke though a barrier in El Paso.
    The Soviet Union will tell you it is a waste of time to build walls. Oh, that's right...
     
  2. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #2
    wall != that tiny fence.
     
  3. Altis macrumors 68030

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    #3
    Interesting that communist countries always seem to need walls to keep people in, rather than out.
     
  4. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #4
    Tiny?
    BTW, the space between the concrete wall and fence had landmines.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #5
    ...but you Donny is inspired by his boy friend, so the country’s history made an impression.
     
  6. Mousse macrumors 68010

    Mousse

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    What kind of grass/undergrowth did the plant over that area with? I'm pretty sure they couldn't pay anyone enough to mow that. If I don't mow my lawn for a month, the grass reaches knee height. Just saying that I would love to have a no mow lawn.
     
  7. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #7
    and did not do too good of a job.
     
  8. LordVic macrumors 603

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    The Berlin wall was an abject failure as evidence for supporters of a wall. its estimated that well over 5,000 people at minimum made it through even the Berlin wall, which was one of the most heavily fortified walls of the modern era.

    However, an exact count I don't believe has ever been made because the Russian's refused to accept that anyone would have made it over.
     
  9. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    Not a bad rate actually.
    That would be 1.8 individuals/mile per year. (5000 individuals divided by 96 miles, divided by 28 years).
    US southern border is 1,954 miles, which would mean 3,635 people per year total (1.8 individuals x 1,954 miles)

    That is well below the 507,767 that crossed illegally in 2015 or the 396,579 apprehensions in 2018.

    https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration/fy-2018#wcm-survey-target-id
    https://www.reference.com/government-politics/many-mexicans-cross-border-year-5cb90159b4355204


    ;)
     
  10. LordVic macrumors 603

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    Wonder what the dollar coding per person stopped would look like though.

    Plus, the circumstances and enforcement is the wrong way around.

    The Berlin Wall was made to keep people in and was heavily armed guarded on the inside. It was really them that deterred alot of travel. Remember, that wall came down damn fast without bloodthirsty armed guards ready to shoot first lining it.


    So. I guess the choices are pretty ****** for the Trump wall. To be effective, the wall would need to be heavily guarded, with a shoot first rule to dissuade any future attempts.
     
  11. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    I’m not sure comparing the Berlin Wall to Trump National Southern Boarder Wall® is really a fair comparison. Americans aren’t exactly trying to flee to Mexico. In 2016 no one said “if Trump gets elected I’m moving to Mexico”.

    I’m “on the fence” about the wall. I’m mostly opposed to wasting billions on something as inane as a wall. Any country has a right to control its borders. Frankly it seems like we have a bit of humanitarian crisis on our hands and I’m not sure how to truly stop it other than dissuade illegal immigration and improve pathways to legal immigration.
     
  12. Zenithal macrumors G3

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    #12
    We could just put up towers and shoot people.
     
  13. LordVic macrumors 603

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    That's the point I was trying to get at by making the comparison to the Berlin Wall.

    A wall is only as effective as the people who are guarding the wall. The Berlin wall was effective, not because it was a wall, but because it was a wall lined with thousands of armed guards who were free to shoot first and ask questions later. This was considered by most of the world as grossly inhumane and Russia was the one performing this action, not the western allies (who would gladly accept anyone who managed to make it accross the wall)
     
  14. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    The Berlin wall worked not just because of the guards but also for everybody being stopped and IDed who came close to it.

    So the trump wall would be needed to build a mile north of the border to make it work just as good.
     
  15. hawkeye_a, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019

    hawkeye_a macrumors 65816

    hawkeye_a

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    #15
    We've had this debate in Australia. Pull vs Push factors. The "left" said it would be "impossible" to stop illegal migrants from illegally breaching Australia's borders because of "push factors", while doing everything/anything in their power to make it more attractive for illegal migrants to circumvent immigration laws ("pull factors"). Australia's "wall" was a policy of no tolerance for illegal immigrants, and a government(a conservative one; big surprise/s), which backed it up with law enforcement using the ADF.

    Right now, the "signal" being transmitted to illegal immigrants south-of-the-border is that, if they break the law, they will be rewarded with legal status, permanent status, and eventually citizenship. They're not stupid. All that is needed is enforcement of existing immigration laws. And an affirmation that if someone crosses the border illegally, there will be 0 chance of getting legal status. That's the real "wall". IMHO

    Incidentally: The Australian cabinet minister who was put in charge of curtailing illegal immigration and implementing that policy in late 2012 was Scott Morrison. Within 6-8 months, he was successful in completely stopping illegal immigration via the sea route, while simultaneously fending off relentless opposition from the left and the press(specifically the national broadcaster(the propaganda wing of the left)). Scott Morrison is now the Prime Minister of Australia.
     
  16. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #16
    South of the US boarder is extreme lawlessness and very high murder rate. Mexico is the site of a few massacres (not counting rumors further south). Tourists are told not to venture outside of the the tourist zones, least they be murdered.

    Fear of death is a powerful motivator.

    As to the rest: The issue has been punted for decades, so the US is now deep in a moral and ethical mess (let alone financially and politically) that is getting worse hourly.
     
  17. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    Doesn't sound much different to the North of the boarder wall tbh........ Not many countries in the world were children are executed en masse in schools on a nearly daily basis, and the places that are, are generally conflict zones.
     
  18. PracticalMac thread starter macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    #18
    Oh, no. In the US it is lawful murder.
    Most of the mass murders got the guns legally, and the NRA says victims are warriors of the 2A. /s
     

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17 May 31, 2019