This guy makes the tea party look sane.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by steve knight, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #1
    Georgia lawmaker proposes classifying miscarriages as ‘prenatal murder’

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelo...s-classifying-miscarriages-as-prenatal-murder

    Earlier this year, a furor broke out in Congress over pending House legislation that critics contended would cut off federal funding for abortion in cases involving rape and incest. But that controversy may well pale beside a new proposal before the Georgia House.

    Georgia State Rep. Bobby Franklin, a Republican from Marietta, Georgia, has introduced a bill that would criminalize miscarriages, making abortion and miscarriage -- or "prenatal murder" in the language of the bill -- potentially punishable by death.

    Reports Mother Jones' Jen Phillips:

    Under Rep. Franklin's bill, HB 1, women who miscarry could become felons if they cannot prove that there was "no human involvement whatsoever in the causation" of their miscarriage. There is no clarification of what "human involvement" means, and this is hugely problematic as medical doctors do not know exactly what causes miscarriages. Miscarriages are estimated to terminate up to a quarter of all pregnancies and the Mayo Clinic says that "the actual number is probably much higher because many miscarriages occur so early in pregnancy that a woman doesn't even know she's pregnant. Most miscarriages occur because the fetus isn't developing normally."

    Phillips notes that last year Franklin -- a graduate of Covenant College who's served in the Georgia House since 1997 -- proposed a law that would reclassify victims of domestic violence as "accusers." His bio on the Georgia House website describes Franklin "an active member of the Reformed Presbyterian Church" but omits any mention of his marital status. And we were curious to learn whether the author of legislation that extends the state's reach very far into the private lives of women was himself married -- so we called his office to inquire, and staffer Leigh Goff told us she's "not sure" if he is.

    Franklin's online bio also states that he "has been called 'the conscience of the Republican Caucus' because he believes that civil government should return to its biblically and constitutionally defined role." The present legislation would hold women women legally responsible for the health and well-being of a fetus from "the moment of conception"-- weeks before modern pregnancy testing can accurately determine whether or not a woman is pregnant. So it seems to follow that Franklin believes government's "biblically and constitutionally defined role" is to hold women criminally liable for nature taking its course in the early days of a pregnancy

    Sponsored by Representative Franklin and dropped in the House Hopper on January 24, 2011, House Bill 3, the "Constitutional Tender Act", aims to make gold and silver the only legal tender for payment of debts by and to the state of Georgia pursuant to Article I Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution. Franklin maintains that all fifty U.S. states are in violation of this Constitutional stipulation to not "make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts," as paper and electronic bank notes (Federal Reserve Accounting Unit Dollars) are used nearly exclusively as tender. On February 17, 2009, Representative Franklin introduced House Bill 466 that would tax the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta as it would any other privately owned bank in the state of Georgia.

    Franklin has sought to abolish Georgia′s Road and Tollway Authority and Department of Health and Human Services. Franklin is an opponent of public schools, stating on his weekly blog that, "The State Has No Jurisdiction To Educate Our Children — Period!" Rep. Franklin commented that public schools are a "sinking ship" and he believes that private and home schooling are a better alternative for Georgia.

    In January 2011, Franklin sponsored a bill that would do away with driver′s licenses in the State of Georgia. Franklin stated that the licenses represented “oppressive times” and “licensing of drivers cannot be required of free people, because taking on the restrictions of a license requires the surrender of an inalienable right.” He further stated that the freedom of movement by operating an automobile should be open to all Americans, regardless of age or driving skills. He cemented these beliefs by noting that he does not object to 12 year old children driving cars on Georgia Highways.

    In 2011 he also proposed, in House Bill 14, to amend Georgia state criminal code with regards to rape so that the new legal term “accuser” be substituted for the currently used legal term “victim,” thereby theoretically no longer protecting a rape victim (in common terminology) from being billed for medical investigation of her rape if her rapist should be acquitted; the bill infuriated victims′ advocates. In House Bill 1, a bill Franklin proposed that would outlaw abortion, a section of existing Georgia statute is quoted which requires that every "spontaneous fetal death" have its cause investigated by the "proper investigating official." The bill would also make abortion punishable by death or life in prison.

    Franklin is a strong opponent of abortion and gay rights. Franklin holds that America has strayed from its Christian past and the country needs to be changed into a Christian nation. Franklin believes that legislation that is in direct opposition to God's word will bring about the wrath of God. In 2010, Franklin stated, "Islamic terrorism is not the greatest threat facing America. God is."Franklin claims that President George W. Bush "praises the gods of pagan religions."

    Representative Franklin is a graduate of Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Ga., where he received a degree in Biblical studies and business administration. He and his wife, Pat, have been married for over 27 years. They have three children, and are active members of Chalcedon Presbyterian Church in Cumming, Georgia
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #2
    Hey- these are just the people who want to return to the "values that made this country great" like fivepoint says. :rolleyes:

    They're not evil or anything.
     
  3. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #3
    Include several other Republicans in this mindset including Ron Paul. The Sanctity of Life Act has been introduced repeatedly, and most recently by Paul. They want legal personhood to begin at conception. The rights of zygotes will override the rights of actual humans.
     
  4. steve knight thread starter macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #4
    I would say his mom should have had an abortion but he is an abortion.
     
  5. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #5
    I really don't want to have to hold your guys' hands and walk you through the 'birds and the bees' talk, but I will if necessary. Suffice to say, abortion ≠ miscarriage. Connecting this loon and his lunatic ideas to that of Ron Paul or that of the Tea Party is simply a tactic to misdirect and to project the insane individual's ideas onto another. It's a red herring, straight up.

    If you want to have a discussion about when life begins, then fine we'll do that. Unlike you, I won't point to the lunatics who think a child (fully capable of living without the assistance of his mother) in the 9th month of pregnancy can have his/her brains scrambled without cause and suggest that's YOUR position. Brilliant.
     
  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    Oh RLY?

    Here's info on the Sanctity of Life Act:

    http://www.prolifealliance.com/sanctity of life act.html

    And here's Ron Paul supporting it:

    http://www.covenantnews.com/abortion/archives/034987.html

    That's some crazy stuff, fivepoint. Even you should be able to see that.
     
  7. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #7
    It's not my fault that you don't understand what conception is.
     
  8. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #8
    Hahaha, and they still don't get it... let's try again... please explain the difference between these two terms:

    abortion ≠ miscarriage
     
  9. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #9
    If an embryo or fetus is a legal person, a miscarriage could be manslaughter.
     
  10. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #10
    Abortion is just a medically induced miscarriage.

    Do you know of any late term abortions that were weren't out of necessity? Do you know anything about this subject at all other than your opinion? Listen to women who have had late term abortions, and their situations, and then come back here and tell me that their situations were merely out of convenience or personal choice.
     
  11. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #11
    I'm waiting for your explanation. You explained absolutely nothing.
     
  12. macquariumguy macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    Abortions are a subset of miscarriages.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    Miscarriages are abortions performed by God.

    Allegedly.
     
  14. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #14
    What do we need to do to get God to stand trial? ;)
     
  15. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #15
    We can't get Bush or Cheney to stand trial, much less Wall St., the bankers, or any of the other architects of our financial meltdown. Oh, don't forget the deepwater horizen and the coal mine disaster at Massey.
     
  16. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    At least they exist. God doesn't. That makes it even more difficult. ;)
     
  17. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #17
    I was disappointed that this thread was not about me. :(
     
  18. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #18
    Not if it is a natural miscarriage- there would not be the mental element of murder/manslaughter (the "mens rea").

    This guy is crazy though! I don't know about the US, but here a baby must be "fully expelled" before it becomes a legal person, which makes sense. (Although, there was a case here about whether the umbilical cord had to be cut for the baby to be a legal person or not!)
     
  19. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #19
    You make a good case. However I'm just wondering if this thread will become the semi-annual abortion/where-does-life-begin-thread-where we-all-hash-out-our-already-formed-arguments-and-nothing-changing.
     
  20. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #20
    The proposed bill that I mentioned would open the door for various allegations and restrictions. At the minimum it would make the Morning After pill illegal because it would be considered murder.
     
  21. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #21
    Did we not already have a thread about this?

    Or was that for a different State? ;)
     
  22. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #22
    Yes, we did
     
  23. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #23
    Why, sue him, of course:

    http://www.ketv.com/r/14133442/detail.html

    Oh, and for the record, as I had stated in the other thread, Ron Paul's own supporters think this bill is sick and wrong.

    BL.
     
  24. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #24
    yes but in that one they would investigate it and based on what I could see you are assumed innocent until proven otherwise.
    This one on the other hand they are assumed guilty unless proven otherwise.
     
  25. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #25
    Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

    It does raise a lot of issues. For instance would an abortion on medical grounds for the mother's safety be self defense?

    See, aside from the craziness and abhorrence if this bill nobody thinks of how it will effect criminal lawyers who have to earn more money in complex cases to test these kinds if arguments!
     

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