This is terrifying.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Falhófnir, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Falhófnir macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #1
  2. decafjava macrumors 68030

    decafjava

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  3. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #3
    When chickens are close to the size of turkeys ..... that's a problem

    When you can get a 3 piece bucket for $2.99 ..... that's a problem

    When chicken growth is at insane speeds ..... that's a problem

    When the majority of chickens consumed were extremely sick it's entire life ...... that's a problem
     
  4. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #4
    Looking from a public health point of view, feeding animals antibiotics is a detriment to “antibiotic stewardship” - the effort to reduce resistance among pathogens.

    Unfortunately the overuse of antibiotics extends well beyond livestock and antibiotic overuse in humans in my mind is an even bigger issue considering many animal diseases do not affect humans.

    Even in my past say 5 years working in healthcare as someone who as clinical pharmacist optimizes drug therapy for patients, it’s amazing to see resistance profiles change for given bacteria... In some cases nearly 1% increases in resistance per year with some drugs.

    It’s a major problem and it effects everyone on the planet. Unfortunately there is no known way to reverse it, only to adapt through developing more effective antiinfective agents. And pharmacuetical companies have very little interest in developing new antibiotics because they’re simply not profitable compared to medications for chronic diseases such depression, diabetes, cardiac conditions, etc. And the few new drugs as a result cost many thousands of dollars for just a single course of treatment. Most “new” drugs are simply variations of existing drug classes (not so much affecting spectrum as they do side effects or dosing/pharmacokinetics) so real technological improvement has almost stalled out entirely.

    If you want to look to a country that is driving antibiotic resistance worse than anyone, look to China.
     
  5. Gutwrench Contributor

    Gutwrench

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    #5
    Growing up on a private family farm, mostly cash crops though, and worked on a major (for our area, private family) hog farm it, I never saw the issues mentioned in the op’s opinion piece. There were not any industrial farms around us though.

    Indeed!
     
  6. Huntn, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018

    Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #6
    Agreed! Ranching in the US is dead because you don’t need a ranch to raise cows, just a feed lot, and you pump your animals full of antibiotics so they can survive in squalid conditions. This should be illegal. Overuse of antibiotics especially for viruses where they should not be used. I believe for people, there is some awareness and possible progress in that area, however, profit Trumps everything else including good sense. :( And this issue is more than just about animals. Are anti-bacterial products available in the UK or the EU? When you see the doctor for a cold, are antibiotics prescribed (just to be safe)?

    Antibiotics are becoming less effective, and their overuse is making them dangerous
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...e3c562f9996_story.html?utm_term=.983d6b75e236


    Chicken, a 3 piece meal with 1 side and biscuit runs $7-8 at Popeye’s. Are you thinking of a particular brand? This is not an attempt to minimize the issue.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018 ---
    We drove through West Texas out to Albuquerque and it was full of cattle feed lots, who by their nature are unsanitary.
     
  7. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #7
    I have some family that has a few thousand head of dairy cattle in Michigan and you don't see it there either but they're not a large corporate farm either
     
  8. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #8
    I’m not an expert, but I believe typical dairy cattle are allowed to roam, not locked in a small confined space 24hr a day with their feces, at least I hope not. I can easily see this issue with commercial chicken raising where antibiotics become a panacea for filthy conditions.
     
  9. bandrews macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    The difference in scale between the US and UK is staggering. Anything in the UK over 1000 head of cattle would be considered "intensive" farming.
    We farm 200 beef cattle organically. We use antibiotics only when required and find that with less intensive practices and cross bred or hardy native breeds, you don't require them anywhere near as much.


    On a similar food note, I've currently got a friend visiting from LA. He bought me some official Girl Scout cookies. I was expecting a hand packaged box of homemade biscuits. Instead it was a mass produced carton of quite revolting samoas and peanut butter patties with ingredients lists longer than the complete works of Shakespeare. He says he really struggles to get bread where the second largest ingredient ISN'T sugar. Why does everything over there have to be full of so much ****?
     
  10. s2mikey macrumors 68020

    s2mikey

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    #10
    While I agree that this sucks.... people want cheap food. Period. Its the same effect as Wal Mart has on the economy: Poeple bitch and complain about Wally World yet they rush there to get their super-cheap chinese goods. Then they wonder why the quality sucks and the jobs are disappearing. Its a different problem but has the same roots. Cheap crap.

    So, we try to buy locally grown/cared for meats when possible but its hard to always get that. If the cost difference was less then I think more poeple would spring for the good stuff. I would. But it has to be available regularly and not extremely overpriced. A good example is one of our local grocery stores sells pre-made(ready to eat) rotisserie chickens that are actually pretty good and only cost $5 bucks. In the bin next to those they have organic, unmodified rotisserie chickens for $11.00/ I kid you not. Same flavoring, same basic thing but MORE than double the cost. Thats insane. Needless to say, that bin stays full most of the time.

    If those better rgade chickens were like $7 or maybe $8 bucks you might consider it. But $11.00? What family on a budget is going to pay that when they probably have to buy TWO to feed their family? Not very many.
     
  11. bandrews macrumors 6502a

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    Even in the UK, some dairy cattle hardly go out. They live in admittedly large, airy, open sided barns but spend most of the time stood on concrete floors or lying in cubicles that have mattresses and sawdust/straw or other bedding material. The slurry is scraped up routinely usually by a tractor. However unappealing this might seem, the cows I have seen in such setups seem happy enough and if they weren't happy, yields would suffer. They are also susceptible to digital dermatitis if left to stand in slurry too long and if their udders get dirty can develop mastitis.
    This system is most commonly used in conventional dairies with pedigree Holstein cattle. They are bred like thoroughbred racehorses and require a high input diet to max out the yields. They live on a knife edge and the slightest upset can trigger illnesses or other complications.

    Alternatively, the other type of dairy is one that uses hardier cattle such as Jersey cattle crossed with other cattle breeds to produce better quality milk (higher butterfat) but not in such high quantities. These are quite often farmed in a "New Zealand" grass based system where they are grazed almost exclusively bar a couple of months at the depths of winter. They mostly eat just grass/silage with pellets fed in the parlour that contain protein (usually from soya).
     
  12. Huntn, Feb 14, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018

    Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #12
    Many people want cheap, not because they want cheap, but because it’s all they can afford. And Walmart, although they may have changed slightly, undercut, added to the problem by undercutting their own employees, adding to driving down wages to serve corporate masters. In the 90s Minnesota, instead of giving many of their employees health care, Walmart offered advice on how the employee could utilize the state’s health care for low wage workers. They also sent lawyers to Minnesota to try to mitigate a report revealing which large corporations had large number of employees without benefits on the State sponsored health care program. However, Minnesota, a liberal model is the exception, not the rule.
     
  13. bandrews macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    The organic ones are $11 because they take longer than a month to reach slaughtering age and are allowed to walk around in the open air in green fields (In the UK at least). Maybe people who can't afford high welfare meat should think about getting their protein elsewhere.
     
  14. eltoslightfoot macrumors 6502a

    eltoslightfoot

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    #14
    Hahahaha! This is the worst hatchetjob of an article I have ever seen. I LIVE and work with ranchers every day in one of those midwest states. Antibiotics aren't allowed to be proactively fed at all. You can only use them to treat infection. You all are falling for massive scare tactics.
     
  15. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #15
    True but I also don't you Europeans consume as much milk or beef as Americans do. My butcher in Germany gets his beef from a farm that has about 40 head cattle, probably 100 pigs and ~400 acres of corn, here that wouldn't be enough to survive.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018 ---
    Yes they are and they need to be brought in twice a day to milk it makes for long days and it's 7 days a week.
     
  16. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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  17. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #17
    I’m trying, but we still eat a lot of chicken. :(
     
  18. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    #18
    Major chains are more expensive. Here in NYC, there's plenty of legit off-brand fast food chicken spots, where it's no more than $3 to $5 for a 3 piece.
     
  19. Falhófnir thread starter macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #19
    My intention wasn't to point the finger at the USA, or any country specifically - it was just that the article was framed with respect to opening up the British market to such produce. I'm sure every country is probably contributing - I believe the article even specifically mentioned the continued use in Britain of a substance which is banned in the states (I will definitely be emailing my MP about that). The big difference of course is that the American people can do something about it.

    Generally in Britain our GPs have gone from one extreme to the other recently, when I was little, they handed antibiotics out like sweets for the most minor complaints, now they are very, very reticent to prescribe them, and it's really drummed into you that you must finish the whole course even if you feel fine halfway through. A lot of the older generation in particular seem to be quite upset with the change, but I think they need to understand they need to be reserved for really life threatening cases.

    My understanding is its mostly a problem with the real rock-bottom of the market, the ultra cheap meat that requires animal densities which are just out and out harmful to the animals' health, and growth rates that don't exist without artificial hormones being pumped in. I believe that's the main argument against abandoning the practice, that it would drive up food prices. But then, considering how much is wasted globally each year I don't think you could reasonably make the argument access to ultra cheap food isn't necessarily a wholly good thing.
     
  20. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #20
    I'm lucky in a way. Since I had cancer I can't swallow chicken. The only time I break down is at breakfast when I'm out - I want my bacon!
     
  21. bandrews macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    My husband is a GP and has people coming in daily demanding antibiotics even after he's told them they won't cure a virus (or hypochondria). Some of them can be really quite rude and aggressive. Sticks to his guns though.
     
  22. Falhófnir thread starter macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #22
    It's a shame people feel so entitled, if only they actually realised what a problem this is. I can imagine it must be very difficult trying to provide a service while having to deal with abuse and standing firm, I don't envy him!
    --- Post Merged, Feb 14, 2018 ---
    I don't think I could ever go fully veggie, but I do try and moderate the amount of meat I eat as best I can. Have completely meat free days, try not to have a meat dish for both lunch and dinner on others. I don't think a lot of people actually realise how recent the advent of a meat-centric diet is.
     
  23. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #23
    This is a problem, but the article starts out with some BS about doctors being precise in their prescribing of antibiotics, that's complete ********. Up until a couple years ago here you could go to the doctor for any reason and almost be guaranteed to pop out the other end with antibiotics.
     
  24. Huntn macrumors P6

    Huntn

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    #24
    I noticed the change in the right direction with our family doctor over the last 25 years.
     
  25. Falhófnir thread starter macrumors 68040

    Falhófnir

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    #25
    Antibiotics have been rationed quite strictly in the UK for a few years now since this started becoming a concern. There's been quite a bit of backlash over it, but ultimately its a necessary.
     

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