Transgender sues crossfit.


Tomorrow

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I can kinda see Crossfit's side here. Their reason for separating competition between men and women has nothing to do with genitalia or mental/emotional factors, but purely physical and physiological ones. Getting a sex change doesn't seem to change those characteristics too much.
 

Huntn

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Does transgender = sex change procedure? And do people who have had their sex changed still have a strength advantage or disadvantage based on their original sex? Is so, it would not be fair to have a former male competing in a female competition.
 

Gav2k

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If the judge sides with her on this then things really are wrong in the world!

Don't get me wrong I accept her right to be seen as a woman but physically (musculature wise) she is a man.
 

lannister80

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Not even "kinda". It's pretty damn obvious why this person should compete with men, and not women.
Interesting that The Olympics decided otherwise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_verification_in_sports#Current_status

"Newer rules permit transsexual athletes to compete in the Olympics after having completed sex reassignment surgery, being legally recognized as a member of the sex they wish to compete as, and having undergone two years of hormonal therapy (unless they transitioned before puberty).[9]"
 

Technarchy

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The female participants should be allowed to take steroids and HGH.

That should level the playing field.

Furthermore, clearly people have learned nothing from Andy Kaufman

 
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hulugu

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I can kinda see Crossfit's side here. Their reason for separating competition between men and women has nothing to do with genitalia or mental/emotional factors, but purely physical and physiological ones. Getting a sex change doesn't seem to change those characteristics too much.


I'm not sure. The important question for CrossFit is how hormone replacement therapy affects competition. Why are men stronger or fitter than women?


As the IOC has allowed people to compete in their new gender after sexual reassignment surgery, I would argue that the combination of surgery and hormone replacement therapy is enough to allow Jonnson to compete in CrossFit games as a woman.
 

Tomorrow

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I'm not sure. The important question for CrossFit is how hormone replacement therapy affects competition. Why are men stronger or fitter than women?
A man who is 6'-4" and 275 lbs of muscle hypothetically undergoes a sex change operation and takes a few years' worth of hormone therapy. Is he then suddenly on par with a woman who's 5'-5" and 130 lbs, in a physical and physiological sense? No, and he never will be.

How he got there is entirely relevant here; he got there from years of being a man. Changing his gender or sex now doesn't change him in an athletic sense.
 

Eraserhead

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If the Olympics have moved on so should we. If it turns out transgender women start outperforming other women by a statistically significant amount then we can see.

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A man who is 6'-4" and 275 lbs of muscle hypothetically undergoes a sex change operation and takes a few years' worth of hormone therapy. Is he then suddenly on par with a woman who's 5'-5" and 130 lbs, in a physical and physiological sense? No, and he never will be.
When you change gender you wouldn't want to be a 275lb man of muscle as you wouldn't fit in.
 

hulugu

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A man who is 6'-4" and 275 lbs of muscle hypothetically undergoes a sex change operation and takes a few years' worth of hormone therapy. Is he then suddenly on par with a woman who's 5'-5" and 130 lbs, in a physical and physiological sense? No, and he never will be.
A couple of points. First, you've chosen a man who is outside the curve for size and strength and compared him to an average woman.

Second, a man won't retain 275 lbs of muscle after years of hormone therapy, especially after removal of the testes during a sexual reassignment surgery.

Third, they're not about to play football, it's a fitness test, so there are other advantages beyond raw strength and size.

Again, I don't actually know the answer, but I'm not convinced that Captain America will remain Captain America despite hormone therapy because that's largely the point of hormone therapy.

The right question is, are men stronger than women even if they're close in size. And, do men retain this strength differential even after hormone therapy.
 

Moyank24

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A man who is 6'-4" and 275 lbs of muscle hypothetically undergoes a sex change operation and takes a few years' worth of hormone therapy. Is he then suddenly on par with a woman who's 5'-5" and 130 lbs, in a physical and physiological sense? No, and he never will be.

How he got there is entirely relevant here; he got there from years of being a man. Changing his gender or sex now doesn't change him in an athletic sense.
The woman in question had her surgery in 2006, which means she's probably been taking estrogen for almost 10 years. In addition to taking estrogen most male to female transgenders take another type of medication that takes away the effects of testosterone.

Do you really believe that she isn't changed from the man she was 10 years ago in an "athletic" sense?
 

tshrimp

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My view....

Chromosome:

XX = Can compete (Female)
XY = Can't compete (Male)


Person would have an unfair advantage IMO.
 

LethalWolfe

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If organizations like the Olympics and the Association of Boxing Commissions think that transgender athletes (once they've met certain 'milestones' in their transition) possess no competitive advantages then I think CrossFit needs to reevaluate their stance.

Height, weight, strength, cardio, etc., are all genetic differences that have wide spans even within genders. I mean, is it 'fair' to have a 5'8", 150lb male in the same competitive category as a 6'4" 275lb male?


My view....

Chromosome:

XX = Can compete (Female)
XY = Can't compete (Male)


Person would have an unfair advantage IMO.
So far science disagrees with your opinion.
 

Moyank24

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My view....

Chromosome:

XX = Can compete (Female)
XY = Can't compete (Male)


Person would have an unfair advantage IMO.
What makes you think that?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Tomorrow. Do you really believe that 10 years of taking estrogen and blocking the effects of testosterone wouldn't level the playing field?
 

tshrimp

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So far science disagrees with your opinion.
Then science has changed since I took it.
Edit: Just looked, and doesn't appear to have changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system


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What makes you think that?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Tomorrow. Do you really believe that 10 years of taking estrogen and blocking the effects of testosterone wouldn't level the playing field?
Correct... I don't.
 
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Tomorrow

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The right question is, are men stronger than women even if they're close in size. And, do men retain this strength differential even after hormone therapy.
The answer is, the powers that be which decided to have men and women compete separately due to there inherent physiological differences believe there's a difference. Lopping off a ding-dong, taking some estrogen, and growing a ponytail doesn't reverse those differences.

The woman in question had her surgery in 2006, which means she's probably been taking estrogen for almost 10 years. In addition to taking estrogen most male to female transgenders take another type of medication that takes away the effects of testosterone.

Do you really believe that she isn't changed from the man she was 10 years ago in an "athletic" sense?
I don't believe she's completely unchanged, but I also don't believe she's physiologically equal to a female. I don't believe hormone therapy completely reverses the physiological differences that gives males their general athletic advantages over females.
 

zioxide

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What makes you think that?

I'll ask you the same question I asked Tomorrow. Do you really believe that 10 years of taking estrogen and blocking the effects of testosterone wouldn't level the playing field?
Aren't normal athletes banned from taking estrogen/testosterone? They're classified as PEDs in many leagues. Why should this be any different?
 

Mord

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Then science has changed since I took it.
Edit: Just looked, and doesn't appear to have changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system


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Correct... I don't.
Thanks for so plainly displaying your ignorance, it really paints an appropriately clear picture of the (lack of a) thought process behind it.

I'd be willing to take you in the slightest bit seriously when transwomen start dominating the olympics and medical science goes back on countless proven observations of the effects of HRT.

Sexual differentiation is entirely dependent on hormones, that's why XY PAIS women develop as ordinary women, and those with XX Male syndrome are typically physically normal males.
 

LethalWolfe

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Aren't normal athletes banned from taking estrogen/testosterone? They're classified as PEDs in many leagues. Why should this be any different?
I think estrogen is the opposite of performance enhancing so someone going from M to F would be taking performance 'dehancing' drugs. Many PEDs boost testosterone levels but there are very rare cases of men having Hypoandrogenism and sports organizations, like the NFL for example, will allow them to undergo Testosterone Replacement Therapy because it is a legitimate medical need. On the flip side, TRT has been banned outright in MMA mainly because they don't want to deal with people trying to game the system.

To point, if there is a legit medical need to take hormones and it does not result in an unfair advantage in a competitive setting I don't see the problem.
 

Huntn

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A man who is 6'-4" and 275 lbs of muscle hypothetically undergoes a sex change operation and takes a few years' worth of hormone therapy. Is he then suddenly on par with a woman who's 5'-5" and 130 elbs, in a physical and physiological sense? No, and he never will be.

How he got there is entirely relevant here; he got there from years of being a man. Changing his gender or sex now doesn't change him in an athletic sense.
No argument, but asking, is this size a pure reflection of maleness? I believe there are some big women out there. And if it is muscle mass, wouldn't hormones and therapy neutralize the advantage?
 

Tomorrow

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No argument, but asking, is this size a pure reflection of maleness? I believe there are some big women out there. And if it is muscle mass, wouldn't hormones and therapy neutralize the advantage?
If eliminating muscle mass were as simple as adding estrogen, then women wouldn't have muscles; the estrogen would get rid of all of them. No, I don't think it works that way; I don't think any amount of hormone therapy could ever completely reverse a then-lifetime's amount of being biologically male. What about height? Men are generally taller than women, but does this get reversed under hormone therapy? Of course not. Longer legs? Broader shoulders? Larger hands? Same thing; take all the estrogen you want, but if you grew up as a male you've got those physical characteristics for life.
 

thekev

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Correct... I don't.
It's strange that you come to a conclusion so quickly with very little information. Have you considered that it may be more of a gut reaction?

A man who is 6'-4" and 275 lbs of muscle hypothetically undergoes a sex change operation and takes a few years' worth of hormone therapy. Is he then suddenly on par with a woman who's 5'-5" and 130 lbs, in a physical and physiological sense? No, and he never will be.

How he got there is entirely relevant here; he got there from years of being a man. Changing his gender or sex now doesn't change him in an athletic sense.
This isn't a good analogy. First I would like you to consider that in certain sports such as boxing, there are different weight classes. When it comes to competitions that do not separate people in that manner, you're more likely to see specific body types. It would be necessary to look at the builds of the women competing. If the sport favors high mass and muscle density, your average profile within that sport is unlikely to match the hypothetical specifications.
 

Huntn

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If eliminating muscle mass were as simple as adding estrogen, then women wouldn't have muscles; the estrogen would get rid of all of them. No, I don't think it works that way; I don't think any amount of hormone therapy could ever completely reverse a then-lifetime's amount of being biologically male. What about height? Men are generally taller than women, but does this get reversed under hormone therapy? Of course not. Longer legs? Broader shoulders? Larger hands? Same thing; take all the estrogen you want, but if you grew up as a male you've got those physical characteristics for life.
I realize this does not cover all of your points but there are very tall women out there.