Transgender weightlifter’s gold medal sparks new debate

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vertical smile, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. vertical smile macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #1
    I do not start threads on the PRSI forum very often, maybe never, but I thought this might create an interesting discussion.

    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/wome...er-athletes-from-competing-in-womens-category

    I can understand both sides of this issue, and it I doubt there will be a solution that will make everyone happy.

    Maybe having the Olympics categories by biological sex instead of gender would make more sense, but I know that this would anger some people.
     
  2. Plutonius macrumors 604

    Plutonius

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    #2
    You should start threads in PRSI more often :).

    Perhaps it's time to end the segregation of men and women in sports ?
     
  3. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #3
    Should have to compete based on your biology not how you identify.
     
  4. vertical smile thread starter macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #4
    I have thought about this for a long while.

    Not just sports, but for other things like professions that have a physical test involved. In my mind, there are physical requirements for a reason, why have different standards for women than men.

    I can't remember the details, but a few years back there was news about a woman that became a NY firefighter even though she didn't pass one of the physical standards.

    So, maybe it is time to end segregation of men and women when it comes to things like sports and professions that have physical requirements.

    But again, I bet many women would not like this.
     
  5. raqball macrumors 68000

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    #5
    This is happening more and more.. Was a Trans cyclist that won a a race a while back as well.

    Maybe these athletes need to start boycotting events where a participant has an unfair advantage? Wonder how much coverage these events would have when there is one participant and no competition at the event.
     
  6. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    I understand the reasoning behind this, but where does it end: lance Armstrong and a French cyclist (can't remember his name) had larger than normal lung capacity. Michael Phelps was double-jointed. A US woman's gymnast is only 4'8". All of these are also a comparative advantage.
     
  7. rdrr macrumors 6502a

    rdrr

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    #7
    Easy fix for the physical standards, because if there are standards we should hold on to them regardless of gender or any other discrimination. We currently have on our job description, "must be able to lift 40 lbs."

    Not sure I think its fair, but if they have a legal right to compete either change the rules or deal with it. I am sure there are some women that could legitimately compete against this transgender weightlifter. Didn't we already settle this with the whole Billy Jean King vs. Bobby Riggs match in the 70s?
     
  8. Altis macrumors 68030

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    #8
    That's just it. The standards are set based on the work that needs to be done.

    But then the standards get lowered for women for the sole purpose of increasing their recruitment. This is purely ideological and puts gender politics ahead of merit and the needs of the work, which in some cases can put lives in danger. It's also discrimination which would be illegal but for some reason is excused (again, ideological reasons).

    As for sports and competition, it's no contest between men and women in almost anything, hence segregated. Why would women train when there's no hope to even qualify?

    That's really how the categories were established: biology.

    However, there's now a push from a field of thought that you can identify as different biology if you declare it so. There's no reason people have to go along with this ideological belief, though. In the end, the entire thing boils down to feelings.
     
  9. Solver macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    Using this kind of postmodern “logic” any animal should be able to compete as long as it is identified as human.
     
  10. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #10
    Who would have thought this topic would be yet another thinly veiled trans bashing opportunity like every other story on this exact same topic?
     
  11. Herdfan, Jul 30, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019

    Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #11
    Which way will anger people more?

    A trans-woman athlete not being allowed to compete in women's sports is going to anger a segment of the population, sure. But what will the anger be if trans woman beats Torie Bowie in the 100M dash, or beats Katy Ledecki in the 200M Free?

    I don't think it will even be close.

    But what it really comes down to is money. Are fans going to tune in or pay money to see what they may view as an unfair competition? They simply may not which will hurt women's sports the most.
     
  12. SmackBookPro macrumors regular

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    #12
    Men and Women are biologically and psychologically different. Different enough that Men and Women compete in their own leagues and that's the way those athletes are happy to compete.

    If you decide to change your gender with operations and medicines that's fine. But you're still physically the sex you were born as. That's a fact. Not 'trans bashing', just cold hard fact. So, you're within relevant metrics essentially a man competing against a woman, and in most cases that's an unfair advantage. No respect for women's rights really to even want to do such a thing, not unfair to even call it 'selfish'.

    Perhaps transexual people need two additional leagues, the "Transexual Men into Women" and the "Transexual Women into Men" leagues. WHY? Because they've both been through the same transformation and the same medicines etc, so the only left variables are the same as the Mens league or the Womens league. Seems fair to me?
     
  13. vertical smile thread starter macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #13
    I know, if it continues, I wonder what women sports will look like a decade or two from now.

    While there will always be individuals that have natural advantages, I think the difference in this situation is how sports are segregated.

    It was traditionally by sex, due to the biological differences between the two.

    If there was never this segregation in sports, then transgender woman competing wouldn't be an issue at all.


    I understand what you mean, but I wouldn't use this as a general rule.

    Maybe, but I am thinking that this shouldn't always be the metric we go by either.

    I wouldn't bother explaining. IMO, there hasn't been any bashing on this tread, at least so far.

    I doubt the person that you replied to even bothered reading the posts. I bet that they probably view any discussion with the topic of any type of minority as people bashing that group.

    While, every other post had some constructive information to add, that person's post doesn't add anything and just attempts to derail the thread.
     
  14. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #14
    This is the world we live in now - men can be women and vice versa. The sooner we all learn to suck it up and move on, the happier we'll be.
     
  15. SmackBookPro macrumors regular

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    #15
    I think that's drastically oversimplifying the well defined obstacle / challenge in this post, don't you?
     
  16. vertical smile thread starter macrumors 68040

    vertical smile

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    #16
    I think you are correct, and it doesn't address the issue at all.
     
  17. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #17
    I agree, the sooner people with your mindset suck it up and move on to something that matters the happier we’ll all be. Good post.
     
  18. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #18
    exactly, that works for me
    --- Post Merged, Jul 31, 2019 ---
    how the hell are women ever going to be "equal" if we keep segregating them even in sports?
     
  19. Plutonius macrumors 604

    Plutonius

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    #19
    You may be correct but it's a valid issue.

    How would you address it ?
     
  20. TheFluffyDuck macrumors 6502

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    #20
    Common sense has taken a steep nosedive in recent years. Why do we separate spots into sex in the first place? Because our forebears noticed something we are taking extraordinary feats of mental gymnastics to obfuscate. Men and women are physically different.

    Transgender persons should NOT be allowed to compete with the identity they choose. Period. They should compete with their biological sex, or solely with other transgender people, or we remove gender restrictions entirely, in which case biological women will never win anything ever again. Before you object to that last point, we are not talking about averages here where you might have a point, we are talking about two overlapping standard distributions of different width and the ratio at the extreme tips (what athletes represent) of those curves.

    Men are biological faster, stronger, and taller than women. From muscle types, hip-width, bone density, knee stability, testosterone etc. etc. etc. But simply calling yourself a woman, doesn't make you one physically, society might be happy to call a man a women, but science doesn't care. Science is true whether we like it or not, or if it offends or not.

    A biological man may be able to mimic a woman, very well, but that does not MAKE him a woman physically, and physical aptitude is what competitive sport is a measure of. A transgender woman has physical advantages over biological women they are competing with. It is cheating with a social licence from intersectional types.
     
  21. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    #21
    I don’t personally consider it an issue, so I have no interest in addressing issues in professional sports, the whole arena is a cesspool.
     
  22. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    Personally I'd address it by classifying people based on their DNA, not what they decide they are. Because if a transgender woman that looked like Mike Tyson decided boxing was their sport they'd have a SERIOUS problem with it.

    Science is science when it comes to the climate, science/biology is "meh" when it comes to things like this.
     
  23. SmackBookPro macrumors regular

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    #23
    You're 110% right. But these social justice warrior kinds just completely go blank when science is mentioned, they can't and refuse to understand it. Even though, from a scientific point of view there's been nothing but the conclusion you mention for decades. It amazes me that the SJWs are actually not being corrected and told that science is right, and they are downright wrong.

    Actually, you've got it the wrong way around. Science is 'meh' when it comes to the climate (it's all theory). Science is as precise as it can be with the gender and sex and differences between men and women. Every study has pointed that there is clear differences between men and women, both physically and mentally. You will not find a respected science body that concludes anything but this.
     
  24. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #24
    Maybe not. But if people don't watch, then there is no money to put on these events. All sports come down to money whether we like it or not.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 31, 2019 ---
    The world we live in now will not be the world we live in in 5 years.

    If we allow Trans-women to compete as women, then we might as well not have women's sports.

    Everyone wants to consider the feelings of the "trans-person", yet no one seems to care about the little girl who has trained her ass off all her life to be the best, only to be beaten by a biological male. I can't believe women's advocacy groups are not losing their minds over this.
     
  25. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #25
    I'm talking about the mindset of those on the left. They're the ones who will scream discrimination if Caitlyn Jenner isn't given a pelvic exam by a doctor.
     

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47 July 30, 2019