Trump’s Economic Miracle

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dogslobber, May 3, 2019.

  1. dogslobber macrumors 68040

    dogslobber

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    #1
  2. appleisking macrumors 6502a

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  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #3
  4. raqball macrumors 68000

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    #4
    If Trump pulled a child from a burning car the headline would read: Trump lets car burn to the ground....
     
  5. Zenithal macrumors 604

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    #5
    I heard it was that QAnon fella.
    --- Post Merged, May 3, 2019 ---
    No, but let's be real he's a big guy and won't be quick about it if he did attempt it.
     
  6. vrDrew, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019

    vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #6
    Two heartbreaking long stories in this week's New York Times.

    What happened when GM closed its Lordstown, OH assembly plant.

    and

    What happens when America's oldest and largest gunmaker goes bankrupt.

    Takeaways: I remember going to Lordstown back in the 1990s when our company sold them factory equipment. Lordstown was where GM made the best-selling Chevy Cruze. GM decided to cancel the Cruze, and concentrate on more profitable trucks and SUVs. GM CEO Mary Barra made $22 million last year. And now another Ohio factory town slides deeper into despair.

    And Remington Arms? Regardless of your feelings about guns in general, you have admit they are a popular, and profitable product. The people at Remington made a good quality, profitable, and in-demand product. And yet the company declared bankruptcy. "Financial Engineering" at one of the nation's biggest private-equity firms is responsible. That article, alone, is enough to shake your faith in the functioning of 21st century capitalism.

    Next to the harsh realities of the global auto manufacturing industry, and the greed and chicanery of global mega-capital, Donald Trump's hats and slogans are a pitiful joke. Sadly, the joke is on the people that put their trust in him.

    And in case you're wondering about Trump's "economic miracle", ponder on this little morsel from the Remington Arms bankruptcy story:

     
  7. Krayzkat Suspended

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    #7
    I wouldn’t call it a miracle lol, but the US economy has continued to do well with Trump, like it was under Obama.
     
  8. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502a

    Bug-Creator

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    #8
    Dunno, the one I am looking at changed direction in late 2009 and has been pointing steadily downwards eversince.

    One could argue that it would have done that regardless of politics.

    Or one could argue that Obama turned it around and Trump had no visible effect.

    Trying to argue that Obama made things worse which were then fixed by Trump is in no way supported by that graph.
     
  9. pdqgp macrumors 68020

    pdqgp

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    #9
    sorry but it didn't do well under Obama......LOL
     
  10. niji Contributor

    niji

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    krayzkat,
    you are right.
    i do wish the graph started a bit earlier, for all to see what "Bush and the No Regulators for Wall Street Bunch" left the unemployment rate for just for a few years under their reckless control before the emergency.
    lest everyone forget: the republicans wanted to let the auto industry go under. obama loaned to it. and the us treasury made a profit on the interest on the loans after the loans were ALL repaid. and saved the auto industry in the USA.
     
  11. Krayzkat Suspended

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    #11
    Can you explain why you believe this?

    If you are just trolling or trying to be sarcastic then please note that sarcasm doesn’t work too well on the internet and breeds fake news.
     
  12. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    Trump did it in the context of a rising Fed Funds Rate along with Quantitative Tightening. Both of those things added a significant drag on the economy. We have only recently started to see acceleration in wages for the vast majority. Under the previous President, wages grew for management while stagnant for the rank and file.
     
  13. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #13
    But Trump is also “doing it” with deficit spending in excess of a trillion dollars a year. It’s Keynes on amphetamines, the likes of which we have never seen in this country during a period of economic expansion.
     
  14. BeeGood, May 4, 2019
    Last edited: May 4, 2019

    BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #14
    There’s a bit of revisionist history going on here.

    The “reckless republicans” weren’t the ones who told the auto industry no. It was the Democratic-controlled senate under Harry Reid who initially rejected them because A) the auto execs didn’t really have a plan to move forward and B) Its a bad look to show up in Washington, hat in hand ready to cry poor while stepping off of expensive private jets.

    And yes, the bailouts “worked”, but there is a cost to that. Bailing out companies actually incentivizes the very behavior that gets you to a point where a bailout is on the table, because “Why not take more risk when the government won’t let me fail?”. TARP wasn’t the first bailout, there were several before that with Long Term Capital management being the latest about a decade prior.

    The federal government shouldn’t be an implied guarantor to private industry. If you can’t manage your own risk, you deserve to fail.
     
  15. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    We went from 5 to 10 in the Bush years and from 10 to 20 in the Obama years. Clinton and Trump both ran on big spending plans. It feels like we are approaching the endgame in what we can do with fiscal and monetary policy.

    Suggested podcast listening: https://www.macrovoices.com/

    I've only gotten through part of it.
     
  16. appleisking macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    I don’t think anybody’s arguing Obama made things worse......
     
  17. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #17
    Not exactly. Nothing against Obama’s efforts (I don’t like it but I think they were needed and started before Obama’s term began so it’s unfair for those against him to point the fingers at him). You’re leaving a very important point that caused the mess: government. For years, maybe decades, certain loans were subsidized by the government, therefore even those loans that were actually at high risk were seen as “zero risk” because the government promised (and failed) to cover for them. It was not [only] deregulation that caused the mess, but a reckless governmental policy.
     
  18. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    The problem was that things were still really bad through about 2015. I saw college engineering grads in 2011 and 2012 from Ivys that couldn't find jobs. Unemployment was falling but the quality of jobs was particularly awful during the Obama jobs. They are only somewhat better today.

    This is why you have AOC, MMT, Occupy Wall St, etc. It is not only the United States - you are seeing this around the world. I blame some of this on technology (so I have to blame myself).
     
  19. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #19
    Why is it that people think something is wrong with capitalism when individual businesses fail?

    That’s how capitalism is supposed to work. If you can’t compete, you close your doors and step aside and allow others more capable of meeting those needs to take over. We get better, cheaper products and services as a result. That’s a signal that capitalism works.
     
  20. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #20
    Have you shopped for an ISP? Capitalism can easily become predatory - it's built into the system. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater here, but Capitalism can sometimes be a real dick.
     
  21. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    Is it really capitalism when local governments only allow one ISP (the one that laid down the copper/fiber) to operate in an area?

    That’s what we had before we bought our current home. Now, we live in an area where 3 different ISP’s compete (AT&T, Charter and Verizon Fios). We have AT&T gigapower and now, when the service is down (which is rare) they get it back up with the quickness. And I’m always getting mailers with deals and discounts from the other two.

    Now, I’m not saying capitalism is perfect. It certainly has its flaws but it’s silly to point out aspects of it that are actually good (competition which forces businesses to perform or die) and put that up as a reason that there’s something wrong with it.
     
  22. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #22
    Look, I'm not a Socialist. Capitalism is the best humanity can manage right now, but like all things it does need limits. Otherwise, the pursuit of wealth eclipses our humanity.
     
  23. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    In pure capitalism the one that laid the copper calls the shots without any government oversight. Every other ISP would be down to 3 options:
    - lay it's own copper
    - use wireless (cell)
    - bow down to whatever the copper owing ISP demands

    As for allowing business to fail, that may sound simple and clean, but sometime someone has to look at the bigger picture:
    - how many other companies and workers may be affected
    - is the problem short term or systematic
    - would new companies be able to take over that market or will it be replaced from big players abroad
     
  24. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    We call that crony capitalism.

    We used to have Comcast providing broadband. Then Fairpoint came in but they didn't have a competitive product. They did eventually get a marginally competitive product. At that point Comcast was willing to deal. But they didn't before because they didn't have to. They had the primary contract with the town and they knew exactly what their customers' options were.
    --- Post Merged, May 4, 2019 ---
    ISPs are quasi-regulated utilities but the regulators can be bought.
     
  25. Bug-Creator macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    Suresure, argument was that it would somehow be better if there were no regulations at all.
     

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65 May 3, 2019