Trump recognizes Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by stylinexpat, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Rum_Becker macrumors regular

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    #101
    The proposed law was adopted by the Senate (93–5),[3] and the House (374–37)

    Looks like congress supports this move in a very bipartisan fashion. As much as I think the Palestinians got a raw deal and deserve a state, the two state solution is dead. This is a great move as anything is better than the status quo, let's kill the two state solution and have Isreal make choose between 1 person one vote or apartheid.

    And before people come and say the two states solution is not dead, I just ask them to google the jewish settlements in the west bank. Unless you kick out close to a million jews, a Palestinian state will not happen, I really hoped Obama would have made progress, but he did absolutely nothing, he made the problem worse. Bibi showed the world that he had more balls than the POTUS, Obama offered Bibi 20 F35's worth billions, all Israel had to do was stop stealing land for 6 months.
     
  2. Solomani macrumors 68040

    Solomani

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    #102
    Exclusive: U.S. asks Israel to restrain response to Jerusalem move



    LMAO. Tillerson's State Department is already in damage control mode less than 24 hours after Trump's declaration. Sad. :rolleyes:
     
  3. darksithpro macrumors 6502

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    #103
    Our Congress wanted this very badly. A unanimous vote. This is not just Trump. You blame him, you have to fairly blame the entire senate too!

    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/06/05/israel-senate-jerusalem-trump-239157

    The Senate overwhelmingly agreed on Monday night to nudge President Donald Trump to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, a campaign promise that he punted on last week.

    The Senate voted 90-0 on a resolution marking the 50th anniversary of Jerusalem's reunification. The measure includes language that "calls upon the president and all United States officials to abide by" a 1995 law that urged then-President Bill Clinton to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem.


    Since that time, both Republican and Democratic presidents have issued six-month waivers of the law that allow them to keep the embassy in Tel Aviv. Trump on Thursday became the latest chief executive to issue such a waiver, although his administration has vowed it will ultimately execute the politically thorny move. Moving the embassy would further complicate efforts to achieve peace in the Middle East and would enrage the United States' Arab allies.

    "While we know that Israel continues to face a number of threats, bipartisan passage of this resolution will serve as yet another indication of the United States’ commitment to standing by our Israeli friends," Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), chief sponsor of the Jerusalem resolution, said in a statement.
     
  4. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 6502a

    stylinexpat

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    #104
    And how does one get a Senate seat if they do not swear loyalty to AIPAC..? Prior to Trump becoming President he had to address AIPAC and pretty much swear loyalty to them and Israel to get into the White House. Then he had to make sure that he elected whom
    They favored as part of his inner circle team. There is a system in place prior to Trump becoming President with terms in place for him. Sheldon did not give him money for nothing.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 ---
    World condemns Trump and pretty much Israel for this..

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42261000
     
  5. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #105
    But the world doesn’t condemn $3B/yr in military gifts.
    But the world wants to respect unrecognized Palestine’s rights while it does not want to respect a peaceful vote in Catalonia.
    I say again, finally.
     
  6. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #106
    Do you honestly think this possible? I am genuinely asking because I see no way this will ever happen. There was no peace when we had one of the most anti-war/ conflicts presidents in American with Obama. There will always be conflict until this earth is destroyed. It's just the way it is.
     
  7. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #108
    Should this change anything? Honestly I don't understand this whole thing. It's already the capital, but just for political reason we have our embassy in Tel Aviv. I get that this means we stand on the Israeli side if we did this, but really should that be that big of a deal? We have been passive about it in the past, we have always been more on the Israeli side.
     
  8. AsherN macrumors 6502

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    #109
    Facts on the ground. Jerusalem is Israel's capital. I can see a 2 state solution. Yes, I can see the removal of settlements. It was don in Gaza, it could be done in the WB. I can see land swap to retain settlements close to the border. As far as Jerusalem is concerned, I can see scenarios where it is a shared capital. I can't imagine any scenario where it is not the capital of Israel.
     
  9. alex2792 macrumors 6502a

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    #110
    There won’t be peace until the Palestinians stop electing terorists to represent them. A key tenant of the Hamas platform is the destruction of Israel so until that changes there won’t be peace. Would anyone negotiate on the condition that you must either let the other party kill you or leave? Hatred for Jews is a fundamental part of Islam, the Koran makes numerous references to killing Jews and Mohammad himself waged a genocide campaign against the Jewish population. Only those ignorant of Islamic history are delusional enough to believe that peace is possible.
     
  10. Plutonius macrumors 604

    Plutonius

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    #111
  11. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 6502a

    stylinexpat

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    #112
    You say “Unrecognized Palestine’s rights”...
    Of the 193 at the UN, 137 recognize Palestine and their rights. Rest were blackmailed by US and Israel into not recognizing Palestine.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/in...tine-growing-recognition-170115201330185.html
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 ---
    Key words are “WEST” for Israel as “EAST” is for Palestine. Trump did neither. Big difference here. Russia supports a two state solution while Israel and the US want a one state solution.
     
  12. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #113
    It's the way of the world to fight to stay alive. When "it's summertime and the livin' is easy" then our tribalism and xenophobia and scapegoating etc etc get tamped down in favor of bringing in and then enjoying the harvests. When our stomachs growl and there's nothing for the kids to eat then... all hell breaks loose and we decide it's definitely the fault of the neighbor who must be hoarding stuff we could eat if he weren't so selfish.

    Somewhere in between those two states, there is room for humans to make mistakes or make progress.

    We can perceive threat where there is none. We can decide to take advantage of someone "because we can", i.e. if I have a thousand bucks and you don't, I can buy more wheat than you can, so I do, and why should it bother me if you go hungry, I don't even know you, because you live a thousand miles away and anyway what happens by you is your problem, not mine, and you're not strong enough to make it mine because I've been exploiting your country's weakness for decades. And for awhile at least, it won't even bother me if you manage to sneak into my neighborhood and set brush fires or slash car tires. With my spare change I built some big walls around my place..

    We can perceive ability to make change where the odds are heavily against our success. Look at Arab Spring. Great start, terrible tragedies. Look at Syria.

    We can try again after failure or defeat. Look at Germany, at Japan. From overreach and eventual defeat can come renewal and a better path to success. We can still hope to look at Syria again in future and find a nation in recovery: when things look bleakest there is still history to show that recovery is possible. How many times has Lebanon got up off the mat now? What does not kill us can eventually give those who survive enough strength to find a path up from the abyss of wars we may not even have started.

    We can decide to trade goods with each other because it benefits both parties. We can emulate what we find admirable in another country's way of conducting its affairs.... usually because it appears that that country's citizens aren't out in the streets throwing bombs, they're working at jobs their educated citizens invented and needed to hire people to staff up to increase output to meet increased demand... to fill the coffers of a government that realizes it has to pave roads from house to school to factory to markets and ports, and must ensure that people's health, housing, schooling, work can sum up to a sustainable state.​

    There are also long periods where peace has been the rule more than the exception. It's been a long time since the USA and Canada have really gone at each other tooth and nail. Of course Trump could still fix that, I guess, depending on what happens if NAFTA gets messed with enough. :eek:

    The Mughal Empire had a hundred-year stretch where harmony amongst Muslims and Hindus was the rule rather than exception. Why? The victors in the early period turned over management of many administrative details --even including the military!-- to the vanquished, and made a point of being inclusive.

    On the other hand it's been awhile since Scotland and England drew swords on each other but then Brexit plans seem to be fetching at least glares across conference tables... and Canada is not happy with the USA at how long it's taking for the XL pipeline extension to happen... if it ever happens...

    There are lots of lessons that history teaches us about what works in the long run and what doesn't. We do seem to repeat the mistakes as well as the successes, but the details are always a little different. I don't see any reason for the planet to give up hope. At least not while relative sanity prevails about use of nuclear weaponry. Some mistakes are potentially without recourse to recovery. So far we've not made a global one.

    I disapprove strongly of what Trump did yesterday regarding recognition of "Jerusalem" as Israel's capital, i.e. omitting to say explicitly that the as yet unsettled state of Palestine also views "Jerusalem" as its capital. He tacked in that "final status" remains negotiable. That will fall on deaf ears to Palestinian interests, since he did not denounce in the same breath Israel's expanded illegal settlements, an ongoing project more than winked at by the current and longstanding Israeli government.

    Even so, I don't feel that what Trump announced is something the region cannot recover from. I do believe the USA has boxed itself out of a constructive short term role as honest broker in the quest that peace seekers in the region will carry on. It's clear that Trump has aligned the USA with right wing Israeli positions. The disappointment of those hoping for peace (and the joy of those who just prefer pot stirring) is already evident.

    At this point about all we can do is to encourage those with voices that can more effectively call --from all quarters-- for a time-out on overreaction to this ill-advised, poorly-timed move by our President.
     
  13. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #114
    Good correction. My bad and my apologies. The US does not recognize Palestine as a state, most of the U.N. does.
    Doesn’t really change the argument. It actually shows the duality of the previous American policy, keeping the Embassy in Tel Aviv while not even recognizing Palestine.


    Well the US can’t declare west/east Jerusalem in this context without implicitly recognizing Palestine as a State. If anything moving the embassy brings some coherence to the American attitude towards Palestinians.

    Off topic rant: I seriously loathe iOS11’s spell checker. It fixes stuff that shouldn’t be fixed, even when I spell a word correctly.
     
  14. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #115
    These are all great thoughts, and would be great if this could happen. Do you see terrorism stopping anytime soon? I don't, so how can there be peace?
     
  15. Tinmania macrumors 68040

    Tinmania

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    #116
    Middle East in General? How quaint. How about starting with Israel itself?

    If given the choice of being a Palestinian Muslim in Israel today or being black in 1963 Birmingham, it would be a tough call.


    Mike
     
  16. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 6502a

    stylinexpat

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    #117
    No clouds=No rain, no occupation,illegal land theft,war crimes,military rule of law,kidnappings,etc..=No terrorism. Where all the above and more exist you will see resistance and people fighting back. Those that do not have advanced military weapons,advanced navy and advanced army will obviously resort to other means of resistance and fighting back. What do you expect when UN resolutions condemning these war crimes and not enforced and Israel is not sanctioned like other countries are. People will fight back then. Under any form of apartheid regime and rule people will fight back and resist occupation. The occupiers then call those fighting back and resisting as terrorists.

    It is not as simple as we are innocent angels and victims while they are evil terrorists. I would bet both of my nuts that the majority of the Palestinians if not 99% would like peace and not resort to wanting war with Israel provided that none of the above I mentioned took place. You would then have peace between two sides. Taking Palestinian lands then building New Israeli settlements on them with walls around them and bringing Israeli Zionist Extremists to live in these places after certainly is not going to make you new friends with the locals there.

    Imagine North Koreans building settlements in South Korea or South Koreans building settlements in North Korea. You think no fight would take place over this..? You may call it terrorism but when one provokes and incites one is bound to get a local response.
    Before blaming just the Palestinians you can see that Israel attacks its neighbors with zero provocation in what it calls self defense in interest if its national security interests. Neighbors attacked by Israel call these attacks unprovoked acts of terrorism. When Palestinians do the same Israel calls them terrorists only there they were attacked and provoked. The double standards here are beyond ridiculous
     
  17. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #118
    I was not simply referring to Israel and Palestine. You mentioned North Korea, do you believe they are being provoked? What about the terrorist attacks in Paris a couple of years ago? Where those provoked? Until nations stop hating each, peace will never happen. Evil people will always exist (we have plenty right here in the USA), so I don't think provoking is what the problem is.
     
  18. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #119
    Gotta admit, I'm enjoying watching the news today. All those Palestinians protesting...burning both the Israeli and American flags, along with pictures of Trump. I suspect the new Intifada is aimed straight at him. He'll have his war, but it's going to be him alone against all the Muslims he hates so much.
     
  19. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #120
    It's Israel that want's the war and they'll put down all comers and consolidate their power.
     
  20. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #121
    How do you figure that? I'd like to see some proof.
     
  21. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #122
    It’s one of the few traditions Trump didn’t want to break.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  22. AsherN macrumors 6502

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    #123
    You obviously don't know Israelis. They don't want a war. They want to live in peace, with stable and secure borders.
     
  23. MachCrit Suspended

    MachCrit

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    #124
    Ever been to Israel, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria? Where is the most opportunity for Muslims?
     
  24. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #125
    Has Israel lost a war yet?
     

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