Trump recognizes Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by stylinexpat, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #126
    You enjoy watching people burn the American flag?
     
  2. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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    #127
    It would not be fair to say that all Israelis want war and support legal occupations and settlements because I know a lot that do not want this or support this. The same goes for Palestinians and Muslims. With that being said it would always be wrong to paint with a broad paint brush. The above aside many Israelis also do not support Netanyahu these days as well and also do not want him in power just as many in America and around the world don’t want Trump in power. What we do know today is that those in power have other objectives in mind and it is not what the people really want.
     
  3. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #128
    You start a war with them, they will finish it. But they aren't starting them. So where's your proof?

    No, I enjoy watching them burn Trump.
     
  4. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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    #129
  5. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #130
    I hope you mean Trump as in pictures of him and not as a Trump based barbecue !!! ;)
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 ---
    Yep, despicable thing. (Also pretty useless)
     
  6. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #131
  7. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #132
    Again...has Israel lost a war yet?

    If the Arab world gangs up again like they did in 67 they will get thumped and likely not get their territory back.
     
  8. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #133
    I assume you mean the picture, but if you mean the person, well that is a bit far. Either way, I can understand the hate for him, but I don't think this does anything.
     
  9. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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    #134
    You have made many great points in this thread but I must but when you say "they aren't" that is not true. Proof is here.. When your neighbor has not launched an attack on you and you launch missiles at them illegally against international law that is considered "Starting them" but not only considered "Starting them" but also "Provocation and incitement" and we all know that this does not go well in the middle east not only with Arabs and Muslims but with Israelis as well so it would not be ok to apply double standards to this policy because double standards in the middle east are not well accepted.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/...s-syria-site-observatory-171205065440006.html

    http://www.dw.com/en/syrian-groups-report-israeli-airstrikes-near-damascus/a-41650869

    http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...oordinating-airstrikes-with-terrorists-517108

    Aside from that we have the illegal settlements issue which is actually an act of starting war with someone. This argument is valid as well because it has been documented by the UN to be illegal and against international law. Theft,provocation and incitement is an act of starting war.
     
  10. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #135
    Still waiting for your proof. I'll be right here.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 ---
    These are all complaints from Syria. That's like the little boy who complains his sister hit him when she's not even in the room.
     
  11. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #136
    What proof do you want? specifically
     
  12. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 65816

    stylinexpat

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    #137
    I must say that I disagree because Provocations and incitements are what start conflicts. For hate to take place provocation or incitement must have taken place. Without getting into every single detail provoking is a very big issue these days in the middle east but not only in the middle east as we now have Trump provoking in America. Today the Germans think it is not North Korea we have to worry about but rather Trump we have to worry about.

    https://qz.com/1147471/germans-think-trump-is-a-bigger-problem-than-north-korea/

    [​IMG]

    As for the Paris attack in Paris a couple of years ago I would like to ask you if you think that we had more or less acts of acts of terrorism prior to the US invasion of Iraq,Libya,Afghanistan and the Civil war that took place after in Syria..?

    I believe that most of the issues we have today are due to provocations and incitements. If you have .50% with mental issues or .50% with extremist ideologies views then we have a 1% possibility of something going wrong or being committed by these kinds of people when provocated or incited. Look at the prison population in America where it is at .91% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States so we can see that in every area there are some issues and problems.

    Any time someone provokes religious people there is negative outcome out of it. Here is a recent example.

    https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/11/married-american-gay-couple-arrested-thailand-kinda-deserve/

    http://www.vcstar.com/story/news/20...le-jailed-baring-butts-thai-temple/908046001/
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 ---
    Israel has admitted in the past that they have struck after so this is not just a complaint it is a fact that I brought up when you asked for proof of starting wars. Proof was provided. If any of it is false please share with us.
     
  13. bmac4 macrumors 601

    bmac4

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    #138
    So you believe this all started because the US attacked Iraq, Libya, and Afghanistan? What was the cause of 9/11? Were Hitler and Nazi Germany provoked?
     
  14. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #139
    spell checker is an enemy of the people!!! :D
     
  15. tgara macrumors 6502a

    tgara

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    #140
    The Jew hatred is strong in this thread.

    It's not an arbitrary decision. In 1995, the Congress passed an act that recognizes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. But every president since then, up until President Trump, did not implement it. Like the presidents before him, Trump campaigned on this issue, so he's been thinking about it for a while.

    What's hilarious is that a bunch of lawmakers who voted for the law in 1995, include some Jews like Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer, Bernie Sanders, and others, are now saying what a terrible decision President Trump made. Just last June, they reaffirmed the same legislation. Hypocrites.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/senat...rking-50-years-since-jerusalem-reunification/
     
  16. AsherN macrumors 6502

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    #141
    We all know the "provocation" was when the UN decided that those uppity Joooz were going to have their own country. That was provocation enough for the Arab world to start a conflict that has lasted 70 years.

    I can't help but stare at the hypocrisy when the Arabs complain about Israel ignoring UN resolution when THEY ignored the very first resolution about the region.
     
  17. yaxomoxay macrumors 68020

    yaxomoxay

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    #142
    I know, but the freaking thing keeps changing what I write !
     
  18. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #143
    You stated:

    I asked for proof. How do you know Israel wants war? So far you have given evidence of them finishing wars.

    Proof that Israel wants war.
     
  19. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #144
    So Netanyahu favors a two state solution?

    Since he doesn't negotiations are off the table and that means war
     
  20. AsherN macrumors 6502

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    #145
    Wow, quite a stretch.

    First off, the hardcore settler movement is out of their mind and has the political power it has only because of th way democracy works in Israel.

    Other than them, and even them, what Israel wants, overwhelmingly, is secure borders and to be left alone. I have friends and family there. Many of them, years ago, were firmly into the Peace Now movement. As years went by, as agreements upon agreements were proposed and rejected, and especially the one with Barak, those people have been moving increasingly right wrt the peace process.

    There was a tremendous amount of hope when Israel dismantled the settlements in Gaza. It was to be followed by the same thing in the WB. But Hamas' response just had Israelis think "hell no".

    You need a partner for peace. And when one of the parties has, as it's core belief, your destruction, well that's not overly conducive to negotiation.
     
  21. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #146
    It's a cliché to say "Be what we want to see" but, it works. One day at a time, one convert at a time.

    Most of us, unless we spend all day every day exposing ourselves to the endless recycling of TV and net breaking news updates, never have to experience overt ill effects from the threats of terrorism that do exist, nor from the actual acts of terrorism that do take place.

    If we live in a gated community someplace, then what I wrote there may get a nod or may get discarded in favor of "look at this video clip of protest gone amok and say that again, I dare you." The choice is sometimes ours, and sometimes not, to focus on terror as the dominant influence in our lives. If you live in an urban slum then you think what I wrote is all wrong because you may face the terror of stray gunshots every day.

    I do resent people jacking up the significance of any isolated incidents of violence as symbolic of the times and so as reason to fear or loathe groups of people who may have been involved. Whose agenda does it serve? There is no personal advantage as a human being to exaggerate the value of choosing to live in fear. Some will claim there can be political advantage. I say even that's really short term. Long term, choosing to live in fear is a self imposed early death sentence. The stresses of fear are not things that the human body sustainably celebrates. One can extrapolate that to the fate of a nation as well, in my opinion.

    I've resisted the impulse to become fearful just because I happened to get mugged a few times in the city. Stuff happens, and crime's part and parcel of it. In 35 years I got mugged maybe three times. Twelve thousand more good days than bad ones, I'd be nuts to fear the city of my love and labor all those years.

    Should someone take that as my dismissal of the 9/11 attacks on the USA back in 2001? No. I don't dismiss the fact that some idiot once rudely slashed my throat before bothering to ask for the paltry eleven bucks in my purse, either. But, I don't sit around all day obsessed by the fact that terror can strike without warning.

    Far too many people all around the globe go the other way on that, and it's not helpful to any situations where people are trying to resolve state-level conflicts or just reduce political or interpersonal strife. I do blame social media and the internet. We can't live without them now, but we need to learn to use (and teach to use) those blessings to our advantage, i.e. in a responsible way.

    That extension of responsible use of the net can only happen one person at a time. But, I see it now as an international crisis. Back in World War II we experienced a shortage of doctors for a number of reasons, and training was expedited to a perhaps alarming pace. I remember an uncle later describing the compression of surgical internships into "Watch one, do one, teach one" when it came to performing successful operations. Hmm.. With respect to stopping the proliferation of irresponsible, thoughtless offerings on the internet, we need to do better than that. First we have to even agree on what's irresponsible or thoughtless. :rolleyes:

    However, even asking oneself if one's own use of the net is responsible would be an improvement over what happens now: we see some really stupid **** and just tend to ignore it so it gets copied for shock value by yet more thoughtless people. Or we see it and think yeah, man, I could say that, so we do, and it feels great to vent, or maybe we put someone down whom we'll never meet, what do we care. It's blowing off steam like down the end of a bar only we think we can do that on the net without consequence.

    Well there are always consequences. In medicine they call the successful campaign of a virus an epidemic. We have an epidemic of thoughtless and often vicious celebration or condemnation of... other people's thoughtless, often vicious... see how that works?

    Some of us have helped make the world sicker with our thoughtless and vicious celebration of a perceived freedom to speak without responsibility or consequence. Some of us shorthand the problem to "stupidity". Okay so I don't know what the vaccine is for stupidity campaigns on the internet, but whatever it is, we could use it. And I do not agree with the cliché that you can't cure stupid. It's ignorance, most of the time, and that is curable.

    If we are not ignorant, then it's irresponsible to encourage ignorance... even if supporting other people's ignorance suits one's political objectives. It's vicious to play on voters' ignorance and to incite them through fear and anger to make a bad choice one more time in their struggle to survive and support their family. Enough people make enough bad choices enough times and the nation will founder. Who knows what the tipping point is. The USA has been playing with matches there for decades now, on both sides of the aisle. And the results should have steered us away from those games but apparently we're addicted to the upside of all the drama. The downside, of course, could be swift and terrible. And, unpredictable.

    So as to terror: information wants to be free, another cliché and another truth at least in the sense that it's pretty hard to kill off an idea. We can ask ourselves if the last idea we helped circulate helped advance ignorance or stir debate about which way is enlightenment. If we work towards not advancing ignorance, the next person may see light. Or at least maybe he'll refrain from posting a retweet of some video showing someone killing someone else in some horrible way. Or refrain from stereotyping any group for the actions of individuals. One less vicious tweet is one less vicious tweet. Someone always fires the last round in a war. Before that a lot of people have to choose to seek peace. One at a time is how the choices are implemented.

    We have to get back to being able to sit at a table and break bread with people who aren't our blood kin, our clan, our tribe... That inability to do exactly that is how it feels to me we are lately in the USA, and we have a tendency to spread our culture abroad.

    "Be what we want to see" means being willing to shake hands with strangers if we want to see peace. And then making the handshake. Thinking one could do that sometime is not enough. We have to reach out.
     
  22. TsMkLg068426 macrumors 65816

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    #147
    Trump just loves terrorists why else he would do this he funds them such as Russian terrorist, Muslim terrorists and now Jewish terrorists he just wants the whole world to clash.
     
  23. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #148
    I agree right now as it stands today neither side really wants peace. I also really think Netanyahu is poking and provoking so they bring war since the only real way to guarantee peace in Israel is to defeat the Arab world in war.
     
  24. darksithpro macrumors 6502

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    #149

    Why not? When everything else fails it's time for a change. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process Since the 1970's there have been attempts for peace after the 1967 war. Nothing has worked. At some point you have to try different things when the old way of doing things doesn't get you anywhere.
     
  25. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #150
    I wouldn't go that far. It's clear to me he's in over his head on this job. I do still think his decision yesterday is off the mark. Not helpful, unless he thinks it can end up smashing the Iran agreement that he loathes (because he didn't cut it, Obama did) and I don't find war with Iran a good idea if that's where he's headed. If he really just thinks what he said yesterday advances the probability of peace in the Palestinian conflict with Israel, I believe he's mistaken.

    We can't be party to the talks now from the Palestinians' point of view, and our older regional allies in the cause of that peace quest, say Jordan and Egypt, tried to dissuade Trump and are not happy that he went ahead anyway. It's one thing if he discounts Saudi Arabia and Iraq and Iran... for assorted reasons... but Jordan and Egypt you'd think he give a little more weight to. Maybe he really just doesn't have a grip on our own history in the region with respect to historical peace efforts. You don't want to be trashing foundations that yielded some progress in the past for God's sake. But Trump is sure pushing it.
     

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