Trump recognizes Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by stylinexpat, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. stylinexpat thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #151
    Iraq and Libya had nothing to do with 9/11 and we invaded both countries.

    Show me that we had more international terror attacks prior to the wars that took place in the Middle East starting with Iraq.

    As for 9/11 an international inquiry easy to take place but the US refused for this to take place and would not allow international investigators to investigate as well. Imagine 3 people were killed in your family (God forbid) and the police came to do an investigation upon why they died. You told them that as head of household only you could do this investigation and no other outside people could investigate this crime. In the end you put the blame on your enemies. What was th cause of 9/11 depends on whom you ask. This is a fact and that is a conspiracy really depends on which side of the fence you are on. If you are neutral you will allow all parties to share their points of view.
     
  2. bmac4 macrumors 68040

    bmac4

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    #152
    A lot of words for a simple question. I get what you are saying, and sure a lot it does come down to us and how we think about situation and let fear take over. The problem I see no solution for is people that are evil. No matter what they are going to try and do evil, and it does not matter how much peace we hope and dream of. There are a lot of evil people in this world that I don't think are going to stop.
     
  3. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #153
    I'm rather concerned that "it's time for a change" because Trump thinks Mueller's getting too much press.

    It can take a long time to make peace. Regimes fall, others rise... you meanwhile try not to undo whatever progress has been established, even when stalemates last a long time. We really lost some support in the region yesterday from corners that have supported ongoing peace process efforts in the past. Like Jordan and Egypt, as I mentioned before. It's not that they don't want to help find a peace any more now, but even for their own domestic reasons they can't say we're neutral brokers any more. So they cannot overtly encourage our further participation. It complicates things even if Abbas finds a way to tone down the influence of pot stirrers on his side of the fence.

    Trump's announcement further divides American Jews who were already on different pages regarding the Jerusalem question. Maybe Trump figures he benefits from shored-up support of Jews who share the opinion of the right in Israel. However, to take actions seen as divisive domestically seems unwise to me. He likes that stuff: the buzz and chaos apparently energize him because he gets a lot of press coverage from it. However, it can hurt us as a country because we're already polarized. Who needs yet more of it? I'm all for free debate of ideas in the USA. This idea, "Jerusalem", maybe its time was not really come yet, but we're having the debate now anyway -- and maybe only because Trump decided to stir a pot and shift the press coverage away from the investigation of people near the top of his campaign staffing last year. Or because he's desperate to score points with some segment of his base about something he can call a major acocmplishment. I just hope it's not a major debacle. For our country's sake and that of the ME as well.
     
  4. bmac4 macrumors 68040

    bmac4

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    #154
    I don't know that I agree with this. I think it has intensified since 9/11, but how much do you think that has to do with social media and reporting being able to get news to us? Here is an article explaining terrorism started long before 9/11.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/02/opinions/nineties-terrorism-bergen/index.html

    Sure the war on Iraq caused more, but it was always going to.

    Now I will agree with you on this. I don't know where I stand on the conspiracy of 9/11, but I do feel like there is more to the story. I think a lot was handled wrong afterwards that needs to be explained.
     
  5. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #155
    Ah so, are you referring to the statement from Russia's Foreign Ministry ?

    I hope you can see the difference between Russia and Trump's statement. ... And of course why it was not as upsetting to the Palestinians.
     
  6. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #156
    If I were a Palestinian I would be more pissed off that after 25 years from the historic handshake between Rabin and Arafat the US still doesn’t recognizes Palestine as a state, even after two very liberal presidents (of which one who signed the actual bill to move the embassy, while the other one increased the military presents to Israel). But I guess it’s fun to say it’s all trump’s fault.
     
  7. TsMkLg068426 macrumors 65816

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    #157


    Any war is not a good idea Trump is messing with something he does not understand Religion, History and Politics sticking his nose into countries that have issues since who knows how long probably as long as before Old Testament. The fact he is claiming AMERICA sees Jerusalem as capital of Israel is also false because not every American sees it that way just few him, his party and crazy supporters. He is just thinking about himself only and his ego is getting bigger look how many countries are against Trump for doing this even the U.N.
     
  8. darksithpro, Dec 7, 2017 at 12:37 PM
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 12:42 PM

    darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #158

    Congress did this. Senate voted 90-0, with 10 abstaining to re-affirm the 95 vote that the capitol of Israel is Jerusalem. Trump was following the orders of Congress. Read what Chuck Schumer's stance on this is.
     
  9. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #159
    It has long been considered an overreach into executive branch options. Some presidents happen to have agreed with the idea. All so far up until this guy Trump have taken a look at the landscape however it was in their own terms in office and decided to defer official recognition and a move of the embassy. What makes Donald Trump different? Nothing to do with the situation on the ground in the Middle East. He's done what he's done from within a purely personal calculus, because that's who and what he is.
     
  10. Rum_Becker macrumors regular

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    #160

    Exactly!! I can understand how people can be frustrated with the situation, but more of the same will do nothing. The PLO should embrace what Trump did and just dissolve itself, let Israel be responsible for the occupation. It will cost Israel billions of dollars is they are in charge and just like Israel changed facts on the ground by stealing land, the Palestinians can also change the facts by slowly getting the right to vote in the west bank.

    As long as Palestinians don't start blowing up jews again, this could really blow up in Israel's face.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 at 1:20 PM ---
    I agree, but his deranged calculus is sometimes the best thing, I am pro Palestinian and I think this is a great move. Since Bush 2, these negoaiations have been a farce, the international community can no longer pay Israels bill for the occupation. If Abbas has any balls, he will disband the government and work for a single secular state for everyone.
     
  11. TsMkLg068426 macrumors 65816

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    #161

    Even if Congress did not pass or voted Trump would overreach and decide for himself which he has done plenty already (funny part is he cries a lot about Obama doing the same). Trump really does not care for peace or a 2 state peace just like Netanyahu this is just about the biggest ego.


    I just wish both countries could put religion aside and be united but religion will always be problem mixed with politics which is what Trump is also doing here in United States.
     
  12. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #162
    It already is starting. Abbas just told Pence to suck it, and is refusing to meet with him when Pence heads to Jerusalem. So tensions are already starting to flare up.

    But that still leaves an even bigger question.. How does recognizing a new capital and moving the embassy to a very tense and volatile place like Jerusalem make America great again??

    I ask, because while Trump and Pence are kowtowing to the inane, GE just sacked 12000 jobs, and Ford is moving more of its EV production to Mexico, meaning more lost jobs.

    MAGA. :rolleyes:

    BL.
     
  13. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #163
    If only I thought that Trump's desire to undo the Iran agreement and join Bibi in proceeding to try to fix Iran's wagon the quick stupid way was not in the picture here somehow, my reaction might possibly have been more like gee i dunno,,, well,,,, let's see how it goes. But, I thoroughly distrust Netanyahu on two-state at this point, and I distrust Trump because of his vengeful impulsivity and general lack of knowledge. So the two of them together just made me think... oy vey.
     
  14. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #164
    YES! YES! YES! Finally someone else says it.
     
  15. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #165
    The move puts at risk some longstanding underlying third-party Arab support for resolution of the conflict. Jordan... Egypt... others who have perhaps been less on public record but have been helpful in the past negotiations. I am not sure all that's in your own calculations but I think it matters. It has helped put a floor under the situation and has stood in the face of some of the extreme calls for wiping Israel from the map.

    Sure it's easy to say we haven't moved forward. We have not seen all hope sunk into the sea either, and those alliances --with their own reasons taken into account-- have been useful and now are under much more strain. Maybe the pushback will only be for domestic consumption but it will be loud and be heard and believed, and contribute to negative energy in the region. I suspect Trump dismissed most wise counsel on this move.
     
  16. Rum_Becker macrumors regular

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    #166
    And this is where I lol all day long, to think at any point he would have allowed a 2 state solution is just ludicrous. In a speech from 1989 he said that Israel should have the worlds fixation on the world events (tiananmen square massacre ) as an opportunity to expel as many Palestinians as they could get away with. Trump just gave Israel a poison pill, if the Palestinians play their cards right, they can win without even shooting one bullet. Actually the only way they can win is without shooting or blowing anything up.
     
  17. Macky-Mac, Dec 7, 2017 at 5:41 PM
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 5:56 PM

    Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

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    #167
    if that's a necessary element, then there's a flaw in your concept :p

    I agree with the following tho;

     
  18. Gutwrench, Dec 7, 2017 at 6:01 PM
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 6:25 PM

    Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

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    #168
    Thanks, I’m now cleaning the Keurig’s water reservoir. :mad:

    This played no part in making me need to clean it. It was saddening and touching.
     
  19. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #169
    How Netanyahu can calculate as viable a permanent standoff with the territories as they are now or a one-state solution where Israel is somehow become that one state and envelopes a huge Arab population then largely descended from generations of disappointed "stateless" Palestinians is beyond me.

    It's not like the rest of the region's Arabs will sit around forever and say well justice for the Palestinians wasn't that big a deal, how much can it matter what country you live in really, they're allowed to work, they don't get hassled that much any more..... Never going to happen that way.

    Israeli government (probably not Netanyahu's) needs to acknowledge two state is in fact their goal and get down to really helping facilitate its reality. Get on with it. Ignore the shopworn pattern of Hamas throwing monkey wrenches in the works. They are a tail wagging dog too long now Arafat's gone. Help Abbas round up more peacemaking power from among the actual Palestinian peace seekers, there are plenty in there, not everyone thinks throwing rocks and bombs has ever been the answer, plenty were tired of Arafat, plenty tired of Hamas and two-faced behavior from assorted PLO members.

    To help Abbas amplify the voices of reason amongst Palestinians is part one of making some progress. Fewer video clips of pot stirring and more clips of Palestinians raising voices against violence and those who commit it on their own side to keep Israel reflexively returning it doubled down with better weapons.

    Something has to break the cycle and yes it cannot only be on the Israeli side. But the Israelis can do more to demonstrate to Abbas that they want to make a honest effort towards two-state solution. This under Bibi has not been that. Under Bibi Israel has seemed almost to welcome sometimes the next stone thrown over the fence, the next bomb or rocket: "See? they are criminals, these people are hopelessly unprepared to run a state."

    Well whoever threw the stone or bomb or launched the rocket may indeed be hopeless. However, they do not represent all the Palestinian people. Let's see the others, let's see Israel support Abbas' efforts to empower the peace seekers. The settlement expansion, and the occasional massive shows of reminding Palestinians holding jobs in Israel that their ability to get to work is tenuous are counterproductive to underwriting talks towards agreement on two states.

    Israel has almost lost its way so many times. Yes, okay, often goaded to it. It behooves Israel to look at the passing of time here, fifty years since UN Resolution 242, and understand, really under-stand, visualize, imagine, the depths of despair that some Palestinians have come to by now,despite some agreements embraced since then. The many do not want violence but they lack true political power, never mind the underpinnings of Hamas... they want a better life and know violence will not get them that. Time for Israel to seek those people out with Abbas or whoever may succeed him who actually also wants peace (which I think Abbas does want).

    Abbas is no Arafat. That fact has been for the most part a decent lock on a new beginning. He's not in as much control as he should be but he's not without power. He's someone Israel can work with, in short. So let them focus on that. It may have been where Kushner, Greenblatt and Powell were going but at least the first two of that trio had credentials tied to favoring Bibi's right wing views.

    One must play hands dealt, sure, but one should not paste over current hands the memories of worse hands had in the past. Bibi keeps looking back. He does paste Arafat over Abbas. The pot stirrers on the Palestinian side are all too happy to act out and validate that outlook even though it's not correct, much less helpful.

    So the problem now is that Trump seems to have kicked the door shut and Israel hasn't recently been seen by Arabs as being prepared to negotiate in good faith anyway. There could be another timeout for awhile... if not another intifada. I hope common sense prevails on the Arab side of the fence and that violent protests now don't loom into someone's idea of a "solution" to the conflict.

    I also wish common sense had prevailed on Trump to let this thing be as it has been for awhile. We are not the only players in the region who want Israel and the Palestinians to reach a two-state agreement and so bring down the related levels of hostility in the ME.

    Maybe Egypt and Jordan need to give it a shot. Lebanon is probably still too riled up and poor Syria is in no shape to get involved. Those were the other two ME countries who in the past had signed agreements related to Resolution 242 or 338, which embraces 242. Egypt and Jordan do have their own problems now with refugees and with dissidents, but they are not seen as biased in favor of Bibi's outlook; they might at least be able to help Abbas get some traction with his people towards talking again, instead of throwing another intifada.
    --- Post Merged, Dec 7, 2017 at 6:30 PM ---
    I added this in case the pump is getting slow...and takes more time to finish the process. I also use brewer-cleaning time to get long reads done LOL.
     
  20. tgara macrumors 6502a

    tgara

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    #170
    Uh, the Congress recently voted to affirm the Jerusalem Embassy Act which explicitly recognizes Jerusalem as the capital. It was even co-sponsored by Chuck Schumer, one of the most prominent Jewish Americans in the Senate. It's the official policy of the country now.

    Of course, Chuck is singing a different tune today because he's a Democrat first, then a Jew.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/senat...rking-50-years-since-jerusalem-reunification/
     
  21. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #171

    Not only that, he's the darn Senate minority LEADER. He's literally the chief spokesman for the Democratic party.
     
  22. Rum_Becker macrumors regular

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    #172
    By not playing their cards right means, do not start blowing up pizza restaurants and going all jihad. I see no flaw in peaceful resistance, do want to see this cycle happen again.
     
  23. chagla macrumors 6502a

    chagla

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    #173
    I don't know how true it is, but many in Mexico considers California and Texas as part of Mexico. I think they want these territories back.
     
  24. Rum_Becker macrumors regular

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    #174
    At the end of the day they have their own problems and will not do much. They have become accustomed to Israel and don't really care much for the Palestinians

    It will not and can not happen, EVER!!! The facts on the ground are firmly in place as the west bank is cut up like swiss cheese. Any deal that israel would offer would be totally unacceptable for the palestinians and should not be accepted. There are 3 options, status quo become more and more like apartheid in SA, Israeli civil war if they were to make an offer that was marginally acceptable, and the third option 1 person, 1 vote.

    The 2nd and third options will most likely not happen so we're left with the 1st, If the Palestinians don't start killing civilians, I believe the world will finally put real pressure on Israel just like the world did with SA.

    There is no point, all that will do is prolong the suffering, best thing to do IMO is to dissolve the PLO and let Israel pay for the occupation. Things will have to hit rock bottom before they get better, Trump has just given the process a massive push forward.
     
  25. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #175
    I'm up for giving them Texas. Hell I'd pay to help ship it.
     

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