Turkey's ascension, the first major Muslim nation, to the EU - good or bad?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by niuniu, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #1
    Cameron's doing the rounds today pushing the Turkish ascension agenda. France aren't happy about it, because it's a Muslim nation, and France we know aren't too happy about furthering integration of Muslims in their society (they're pushing the Burka ban atm for example). But France have some sort of Christian agenda, so I wouldn't follow their lead on anything religion related.

    What you reckon, good for us, bad for us?

    Personally I reckon it's good in the long run, if Turkey ascends, they'll have their extreme policies chipped away gradually by EU Directives as has happened to every country in the EU, including the UK. We've all yielded to the will of the Union. Which will mean that this will be the first major Muslim nation that's adopting in law, the highest standards of equality.

    That sounds pretty good.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10767768
     
  2. paddy macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    As long as they're in decent economic shape, then without doubt let them in!
     
  3. stomer macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    I remain to be convinced how it's in the UK's national interest that Turkey be admitted. Also, unlike all other countries in the EU, Turkey would be the one country that you could easily argue does not share in common European values.

    Anyway, if you're blocking Youtube, acsension should be out of the question.
     
  4. Queso macrumors G4

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    #4
    Great for Turkey. Ever since it crawled out of the ashes of the Ottoman Empire it's been a secular state, yet recently there has been a rise in support for Islamic parties. EU entry would most likely steady the ship and keep the secular agenda dominant.

    As for the rest of the EU there are so many Turkish people scattered amongst us anyway I don't think there's be too much of a change. Nothing to worry about on that score. The biggest stumbling block IMO is their position on Cyprus, which is of course already an EU member.
     
  5. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #5
    So the french effort to secularize schools and ban overt religious symbols, and in the case of the Hajab when some girls and women are forced to wear it, is not a progressive symbol of equality in french society but a christian conspiracy to oppress muslims?

    wiki
     
  6. niuniu thread starter macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #6

    Sarkozy doesn't keep it a secret anyway - he has publicly stated that France is rooted in Christianity during his trip to the Vatican and that he wants Catholics to play a bigger role in public service, because of their faith.


    Just like your article says, ban the headscarves (muslims), ban the yarmulkes (Jews) and ban the turbans (sikhs) but crosses (christians) are ok.
     
  7. obeygiant macrumors 68040

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    #7
    I think a star of david, and a crescent moon and star would be okay as well as they are subtle expressions of faith.
     
  8. niuniu thread starter macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #8
    Why are they subtle? Because of their size? I had an argument with a guy who had a fish sticker on the back of his BMW recently, small sticker, but it was deeply offensive to see some idiot run around marking himself out to a holy higher standard when he's driving a premium brand car. Apparently his God wanted him to have a BMW while people starve.

    No, it's all the same. Either you ban everything religious, or you go the tolerance route. If you start faffing around, you'll fall short of EU law, which is what France are about to find out in the next few months when they try to legislate this burka ban.

    And like Sarkozy said, France's roots are in Christianity. He's not a man to mince his words.
     
  9. Burnsey macrumors 6502a

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    #9
    I think generally a government attempting to control how people dress is a bad idea.
     
  10. Queso macrumors G4

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    #10
    My thoughts on Burka bans.

    When I go anywhere on the motorbike I am expected to remove my helmet when I go into a store, a bank, or pretty much any establishment other than a petrol station. If I enter anywhere wearing the helmet I will be approached and told to remove it. This is because it covers my face.

    If burkas are permitted, even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the Islamic faith and are instead rooted in tribal Persian customs, does this mean I and other motorcyclists can keep our helmets on just by saying it is part of our culture? If not why not?
     
  11. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    I think generally a religion attempting to control how people dress is a bad idea.
     
  12. niuniu thread starter macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #12
    Well the route a lot of these debates are going is the moderate one. No burkas in situations where it's necessary to communicate between professionals, ie at the doctor, with a teacher, at the bank etc. But in public, as in going about your day, wear whatever you want, that includes your helmet.

    I think that's the right balance and a tolerant one that's respectful to everyone.
     
  13. Peterkro macrumors 68020

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    #13
    Sarkozy is a dick and has picked the wrong fight if he thinks he can change France's constitution:

    ‘La France est une République indivisible, laïque, démocratique et sociale.’
    Large religious symbols including crosses are not allowed in schools (smaller symbols of whatever kind are more likely to be at least partially hidden).
    Foot binding,Sati and clitorectomies have been or are parts of the culture of groups of people who have settled in various European countries, should they be allowed?
     
  14. iShater macrumors 604

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    #14
    If you have been to Turkey recently, you realize it is a unique fusion between the East and the West. I expect this to be a positive step.
     
  15. jb1280 macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    I think there are a lot of significant questions involved in this particular move by the UK.

    First, is this a signal that the UK wants to play a more prominent role in European affairs?

    The idea of Turkish membership is in line with UK foreign policy towards the EU from the very beginning. It would broaden the union and add a powerful state at the union's periphery. Very much similar to the American perception of the EU.

    Second, how much clout does the UK really have in this debate?

    No matter how much the UK wants Turkey in, there are going to be problems with France and Germany.

    The only way this is resolved on the European side is if decades of tension between British, French, and German policy towards the EU in general, are significantly reduced. Time will tell.

    How does this fit into the general question of EU enlargement?

    There is a lot of literature on so-called enlargement burnout. Surely there is some truth to this, but I would argue that enlargement as much about the individual foreign policy of EU's border states. What EU member states exist that havd borders with Turkey that posess clout in the Union and have a strong incentive to promote Turkey's membership?

    what will the impact of enlargement in the Balkans have on this discussion. The religious aspect will be put to sleep, but does that mark some end to the project either from an ideological or practical question?

    Finally, what about Turkey itself? Although there is still the boilerplate about EU membership, I am very much doubtful that it remains a high priority for the Turkish political elite. There is a generational shift taking place, and the more that Turkey feels that it can exert its influence in the region without the EU and build its economy that way, the less incentive it has to subjugate its foreign policy to the EUs.
     
  16. Queso macrumors G4

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    #16
    Not at all. Sort of my point. I have problems with everyone being expected to bend over backwards when it comes to religious practices, but when it comes to outdated cultural ones hiding behind religion there's no way.

    Saying that, in a shared public space I have no problem with burkas. But the other side of that bargain IMO is that anyone who chooses to wear one loses the right to whinge on about it if they are prevented from entering a private building as a result. I think it's an incredibly selfish garment and an incredibly selfish practice, and those that choose to wear it should drop their overblown sense of entitlement about it. The arguments are reminiscent of emo kids going on about how nobody understands them and I find it quite pathetic.

    Anyway, we're getting rather off-topic. Back to discussing EU enlargement :)
     
  17. Burnsey macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Religion doesn't control how people dress, people either choose to dress a certain way, or are forced to dress a certain way by another party. Religion by itself has no power in anything, it is a belief/way of life to be subscribed to by those who believe in it.
     
  18. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #18
    I dunno, its a bit of a mix for me. Turkey is a very big country that is also poor and also not really in Europe but it would bring benefits to bring them in.
     
  19. remmy macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    I have a feeling that the EU is expanding too quickly and to what I feel could be a difficult size. Turkey is too big itself, they could have a significant impact on the EU.
     
  20. awmazz macrumors 65816

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    #20
    The capital of Turkey was once the capital of Europe and central repository of European culture when most ancestors of Europeans today were still living in mud huts swinging axes at each other. Turkey was in the Roman Empire before France was. Go back further in European history and you'll find Troy is also in Turkey.

    That Constantinople was captured by the Ottomans doesn't change the fact that Turkey has never has been anything but European. Just a part of Europe which was occupied by non-Europeans as Spain was too once. They just never managed to kick the Ottomans and Islam out like they did the Moors.
     
  21. leekohler macrumors G5

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    #21
    This concerns me as well. While I think this will ultimately be a good thing, it may be a very bumpy road indeed.
     
  22. Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #22
    Funny how he forgets the Deists and Atheists who participated in the revolution which successfully turned France from a Monarchy with ties to Catholicism to Democracy with no ties to any state religion.
     
  23. awmazz macrumors 65816

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    #23
    Turkey has been an effective member and contributor of NATO for 60 years. Even before West Germany was. I can't see why there would be any bumps. Turkey is more economically stable than Greece or Iceland is.

    Speaking of which, Iceland's EU application should be rejected! Iceland is closer to North America than it is to Europe. If Iceland can be admitted even though it's so far away, then Australia should be allowed to join too. We're a European country too then, we have Euopean people and culture here. Our substantial agricultural industry can use all those EU farm subsidies to grow fat and rich off French taxpayer's money. ;)
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

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    #24
    Your potted history of Asia Minor is somewhat skewed, in that Anatolia was never considered part of Europe. The Roman Empire was never synonymous with Europe. However, I strongly believe that Turkey should become part of what, for lack of a more prescient term, we call the European Union. I think the best possible outcome would be to gradually absorb all the countries around the Mediterranean, including the North African nations, the Levantine nations and even further east. As long as all prospective members accept the acquis communautaire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire) there is a prospect of real and lasting progress in the reintegration of nation states into a forward-looking community. Perhaps, in time, we could even reacquire the achievements of the Roman Empire in this respect. Wouldn't that be something?
     
  25. niuniu thread starter macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #25

    And a European Union army?
     

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