U.S. Navy Chief Petty Officer initiation ill-advisedly abolished

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MyMac1976, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. MyMac1976 macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #1
    http://communities.washingtontimes....y-chief-petty-officer-initiation-ill-advised/

    I'm in no way conservative but I have been in or worked for the Military since leaving college in 1998. If you conservatives would like to make a point use articles like this no some silly Barry made the SEALs take off a silly yellow patch hur dur.

    Things like this are what make the military and speak to the state of the military but alas it's not a tea bagger symbol so it's not worthy. What this show is how shallow most tea baggers are. If you want to be part of a solution help the military keep it's traditions and adapt to new ways at the same time.

    This piece written as an OpEd about a year ago.
     
  2. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #2
    Can you please provide a source more reputable than a Washington Times Op-ed?
     
  3. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #4
    I've never meet a Cheif that I didn't like. Most of them seemed down to earth, fair, and took care of business without being pricks.
     
  4. MyMac1976 thread starter macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #5
    That generally comes from wisdom and humility.
     
  5. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #6
    I get that.

    But in order to get a grasp on the situation I was asking for something more. Thank you for providing the PDF. It was quite helpful.

    I couldn't get through it all—I'm getting ready for work—but it appears to be a crackdown against hazing.

    Is that what we're looking at here?

    Are people really trying to defend hazing rituals?
     
  6. MyMac1976 thread starter macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #7
    It's not hazing like we used to do i.e. dangerous.

    Like all things in life people need to function on different levels, E-5 and E-6 are junior NCO's their job is to insure good order and discipline if you will. When you break for Senior NCO that is less your job you job becomes more mediator, decision maker, teacher, and counselor. E-5's and E-6's by the nature of the job need very large ego's and a ton of energy so in order to make that next step you need a bit of humility knocked back in you. These initiation ceremony's do that, they in many ways forcibly return you to being a junior soldier/sailor.

    The Navy has had a rash of senior office firings over the last couple years for stuff these men and women should have known better than doing. (from here on I'm going to start with opinion) One of the roles of senior NCO's is to train and temper Officers they are called senior enlisted advisors for a reason. If you combine an absence of humility, fast promotion because of way, and the young age because of the fast promotion you get a potentially toxic mix. Please remember as you're thinking about this that these people the these leaders are in charge of are literally 1000's of miles from any where and are on a can or in a tube you cannot escape in other words.

    The Military has real issues it needs to deal with budgets, transition to peacetime, down sizing, and training it strikes me as overly disingenuous to post stupid ***** about cover and patch's when there is real work to be done. These people also happen to be the tradition supporters of a "strong military".

    How about we leave the asinine stuff out partisan stuff out of the military conversation. The Pols gave them the box they have to work in now help them work within it.
     
  7. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #8
    "Humility knocked back into you"?

    "Forcibly return you"?

    Sounds like it could be hazing to me.

    And Richie Incognito just thought he was helping a teammate be a better player.

    ;)
     
  8. MyMac1976 thread starter macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #9
    Zen, you were not the person I intended this post for, you and I agree on much but your pacifism and views on a standing army will always be a point of divergence.

    At the top of the post I put:

    "It's not hazing like we used to do i.e. dangerous."

    hazing and rite of initiation have been present for a long time, they've been around because they serve a purpose. Every step in the military hierarchy has initiations starting with basic training and OBC this is just another one. I seem to recall some pretty interesting initiations to fraternities.
     
  9. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #10
    Many of these rituals are being seen for what they are: unnecessary, brutal, psycho-sexual expressions of dominance and aggression.

    I welcome leaving them behind.

    YMMV.
     
  10. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #11
    Count me in as being a naysayer on hazing, whether it is in the boy scouts, fraternities, or in the Navy. It may have been around in the military since the pyramids were built, but, the only purpose it really serves is to entertain the top primates in the social hierarchy. If you want proof of human evolution, you need go no further.
     
  11. CalWizrd Suspended

    CalWizrd

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    #12
    Wow
     
  12. MyMac1976 thread starter macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #13
    As in all things common sense application is the best course.

    There is a line, where do we draw it? Violent hazing has been outlawed.

    from da wiki

    "Outside of the criminal context, a form of the syndrome may take place in military basic training, in which "training is a mildly traumatic experience intended to produce a bond," with the goal of forming military units which will remain loyal to each other even in life-threatening situations."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing
     
  13. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #14
    Not for nothing, but look at where some of it lead, especially with Abu Ghraib, and some of the sodomy that happened there. That could be thought of as the next stage after hazing, as brutal and shocking as the atrocities our armed forces committed there were.

    BL.
     
  14. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #15
    Nothing psychosexual going on there.

    ;)
     
  15. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #16
    What does this initiation entail? Is this a formal, structured initiation or the kind of grab-ass hazing rituals that fraternities engage in?

    There's a marked difference between disciplined training, carefully orchestrated to teach, and the brutal hazing that has appeared again and again among the armed forces.

    If the Navy has decided to remove the CPO initiation is this just a sign of an evolving military force?
     
  16. CalWizrd Suspended

    CalWizrd

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    #17
    The reason for my "Wow" was my initial reaction to the phrase "... brutal, psycho-sexual expressions of dominance and aggression...".

    Every human action falls somewhere on a very large scale ranging from simple, non-harmful traditional behavior to excessive, harmful, evil and/or sadistic cruelty. The action of hazing can be found anywhere along this line.

    About 1000 years ago when I was in college and pledging a fraternity, my pledge class, like many before, was subject to hazing by the existing brothers. Yes, we did many pushups while being sprayed with water. Yes, I had to eat my share of raw onions. Yes, I had to walk a live chicken around the campus on a leash for a few days.

    These silly antics served many worthwhile purposes.

    For one, it created a strong sense of camaraderie among the pledges, building friendships and loyalties that continue to exist today.

    For another, it provided the fraternity brothers with some interesting insights into the personalities and character of each of the pledges.

    Finally, it has left me with many enjoyable memories of some of the ridiculous things one experiences (endures) in one's youth.

    None of these activities could be painted with the broad brush of brutal, psycho-sexual expressions of dominance and aggression.

    Spectrums usually have endpoints that can be pretty far apart. And a generalization is never right. ;)
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #18
    Does taking a new recruit to the pub count as hazing?
     
  18. elistan macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    Prior familiarity to the matter appears to be required to truly understand the topic being brought up. I don't know the details of the previous "Induction" process, nor the backstory and intent of the new (?) CPO 365 program.

    But from a bit of reading, sounds like the MCPON wanted to change the promotion FCPOs to CPO from a single-point-in-time even (ie, the induction) to a continuous process - 365 days a year.

    I don't see how that is ill-advised.

     
  19. anonymouslurker macrumors regular

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    #20
    In my experience, the transition from blues to khakis is very sharply defined, and not something that should be spread out over a long period of time. (IMO)
     
  20. Peace, Nov 5, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013

    Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #21
    I met a few CPO jerks in the Navy. Most were very good at what they did and did have respect of lower ranked officers. In my division we had a MCPO SEA. He happened to be a Boiler Tech like I was. He did indeed take care of the fire room .

    When you're in the bilges and a CPO walks through with a freshly ironed,pleated uniform on it does cause some strife.

    On Topic though. There are a lot of traditional initiations that should stay. When I went from an E-3 Fireman to E-4 3rd. class Petty Officer they initiated me quit well. For a week before i had my crow all the other PO's "sealed" it with a slam to the arm of my shoulder. I was sore for a while but it was part of the transition.

    Back during Vietnam there were some bizarre initiations.
     
  21. MyMac1976 thread starter macrumors 6502

    MyMac1976

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    #22
    When I went from 1LT to CPT (for sailors O2 to O3) of Infantry the initiation provided good memories :D
     
  22. elistan macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    But the training leading up to the transition - it's happening all the time, isn't it? Sounds like there will still be a Final Test and pinning ceremony to create that sharply defined transition...

    Reading through the MCPON's document some more, it does seem to me that the goal is to eliminate hazing, while preserving Naval traditions and ensuring FCPOs become quality CPOs.
     
  23. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    Mar 22, 2010
    #24
    If the hazing were as positive and affirming as you describe your experience, then I'd expect it to be part of regular training.

    Let's see how Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy (AW/NAC) Mike Stevens described it ...

    More from the article ...

     
  24. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #25
    Good luck with that when your ship crosses the Equator.

    ;)
     

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