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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, Dec 18, 2003.
Ah yes, the angry white male theory. I didn't think that was anything new?
i will state this first...i am a democrat
but the republicans since the late 80s and early 90s up til now have been brilliant in capturing the blue collar world in votes...a group that has traditionally been democrat and still receive more from democratic policies
but the gop has remade its image from greedy silver spooners to the other party that stands for the working man
when i heard colin powell's speech at the 2000 republican convention, he made a good argument for how the gop is better for the minority in america...he had so much authority in his voice and many trust him like a grandfather...he put a great spin on the gop as the party for minorities today
just like the south went from being solidly democratic to solidly republican, the blue collar trust in the gop can make the gop change their policies to cater more to them...in the meantime, the success of clinton with wall street has remade the democrats into the other party for big business and business in general
if this trend continues, the democrats may end up being the rich, waspy, fatcat party of ivy leaguers and the gop may end up becoming the party that the workers and unions support...it could be a big flip flop
during the civil war, it was the gop who was the more socially progressive party and over the years that changed around so anything can happen over a long period of time
typically, the more educated you become the more liberal you become so it not surprising that blue collar workers would be more inclined to vote Repbulican.
what i find very sad is how the democrats have lost much of the working class vote...i thought that is who they stood up for and since when has the democratic party been the party of the yuppie elite?
howard dean's consituency is called the starbuck's brigade and he is the overwhelming choice of educated professional people...the still significant blue collar force still with the democrats very much like general wesley clark
and it's ironic that they are trying to displace the working class hero george bush who went to philips andover, yale, and harvard and comes from the northeast brahmin...what a strange world we live in
Since the unions have been falling apart.
unions have lost nearly half their power since their heyday and while they are still a major force in american politics, they are no longer the democrats ace card
i remember growing up where america was two to one in favor of the democrats and the biggest issue for the democrats was just getting democrats to get out and vote...now i see a big push for the democrats to capture republicans who used to be democrats
i used to be a republican in the nixon and ford days, and i believed them to be excellent presidents as i still do, but when the gop got the "say anything/promise anything but spend our money instead" reagan and bush, then i ditched the party and went democrat and have not looked back since
but since educated business conservatives like me ran over to clinton/gore, many a blue collar worker went to the dole/bush camp and it became kind of like a baseball team trade
this swapping period of the 80s and 90s will be studied by political scientists for many years to come
The Democrats became perceived by many blue collar folks as catering or pandering to Women's Lib and homosexuals--aside from any racial issues. Further, the blue collar perception of "Welfare"--however skewed it may be--is very negative and is tied to the Democrats.
My question, then, is why would anybody be surprised at the shift in blue collar voting patterns? I saw this coming in the days of the 55mph speed limit. I was on the road a good bit, and the various commentaries over the CB by truckers provided a pretty good clue about likes and dislikes in politics...
In the south, mountain west and southwest, the gun control issue also favors the Republicans. Just ask Ann Richards about Texas, and a fair number of legislators in Georgia.
I'm hardly a Yuppie or Elite. You might be surprised who is out there being educated beyond high school these days. Most of the people I went to school with were going into service related fields. Certainly not high paying jobs. While education is the way out of poverty is not necessarily the road to wealth
So in other words, the more educated you get, the more dumb you become? Or better yet, the more brainwashed you become?
actually, the opposite
That's only if you get your MBA and go to work for Enron, then end up working for Bush!
Seriously, education levels are too blunt a tool to describe liberals. Minority voters have traditionally voted for some of the most liberal candidates and if you compare education levels they are, in general, not as high as the population as a whole.
Union membership certainly has something to do with the voting habits of blue collar workers, but it is not the only factor by far. I would agree with the observation that there have been profound cultural changes that have occurred over the last 25 to 40 years and these changes have effected how blue collar voters view politics. However, I think it is more of a question of how effective politicians are in taping into the feeling of alienation among most blue collar voters.
To put it bluntly, the Republican Party has been very effective in its use of fear and patriotic symbols to convince many blue collar voters to vote against their interests. Having grown up in a blue collar family and having worked in such jobs much of my life, I have no doubt where my interests lie - and they are not with Bush!
Big business runs both these guys and if you think not you are mistaken. It use to be Democrats were for the poor, Republicans were for the rich and the middle class got screwed. but according to this its the dumbies are for the Republicans, the smarties are for the Democrats and the middle class is still getting screwed- whats changed? What are the blue collars values? they love god, they love patriotism and they love country. now ask yourself which party holds these values more then the other?
Those are not just blue collar values. I don't buy the idea that the Republican party best holds these values. I do accept the idea that it has been effective in convincing many people that it does. I think that is not a reflection of reality, but one of perception.
I think you are right to point out that both parties are controlled by big business. I would like to see other parties become viable options to choose from, but not in this presidential race. This is not an election about big business, at least not all large corporations. It is about the direction our country is taking under Bush. Corporate control is an issue only in as much as they support or push the policies of Bush. The only viable alternative is the candidate of the Democratic Party. To the degree the Democrats can build a broad coalition that takes in blue collar workers and many others they and we will be successful.
perhaps better wording would be which party ( seems or promotes these values then the other?) maybe even which party is marketing these values? anyways you look at it the Republicans are getting these guys. I just read today that another senator or congressman was switching over to the republicans. by the way iam Independent.
Middle class still get an education. They just have to pay more for it when all is said and done. (Stafford Loans, anyone?)
dude, you're so funny I just **** my pants.
I like what Hochschild says about why the blue collar identifies with the Republican party. The big divide is cultural, not economic.
But Hochschild is way off when he tries to account for why the blue collar approves of men like Bush. It has nothing to do with immature hijinks because they don't fixate on or believe any of those stories about him. I think here is where Hochschild's Marxism gets in the way. There is no class envy for them to overcome. They identify with the wealthy. They--we--live in a country that is saturated with cultural images of wealth. We spend less time focused on neighborhood gossip than we do on celebrity gossip. The rich and famous are our neighborhood, regardless of the fact that most of the people who watch are poor. They want to believe they are rich. Lotteries and Vegas even give them the hope that someday they will be rich. So they turn a blind eye to all the sweetheart deals between big business and the government. They revile taxes that would actually help them. It's all about hope. It's sick and twisted, the way hope is used against them, but that's how it's done.
Essentially, they are in denial about their own state of affairs. They want so desperately to keep up the illusion that America and the straight white man are at the top of the world that they ignore their own poverty.
catering to homosexuals? by how much then? wasn't gay marriage still not law when clinton left office after eight years? catering to women's lib? again, by how much? women still make less than men for the same job
it's a lot more complex than that and though the shift is real, there are far too many factors to take into account...i still know a lot of white, male blue collar workers who hate the ground george bush walks on and think theat he caters to his rich corporate buddies and the rich/very rich...just look at who benefits the most from tax cuts
colin powell thinks that the minorities in america will be next to jump over to the republican party and if that is true, then i see that the democrats would then be in a lot of trouble...we all know that colin powell or condi rice have been in the hopes of some republicans to run in 2008...i guess then we will see how many of colin powell's minorities actually vote for him or condi rice
in 1992, bush senior's only minority victory was among asian americans, but i am one asian american that went against the trend
jef, re "catering to homosexuals? by how much then? wasn't gay marriage still not law when clinton left office after eight years? catering to women's lib? again, by how much? women still make less than men for the same job."
Passage of laws is less important in public perception than the speechifying on issues, or the introduction of legislation with the attendant PR handouts.
All I'm saying is that as a generality in the blue collar world, the perceptions exist. I've hung out in too many beer joints and schmoozed with too many "workin' folks" to believe otherwise. I'm not trying at all to justify those perceptions.
Nice. Thanks for lowering the maturity level around here.
Republicans have become percieved as being in the pocket of big business particularly the oil and gas industry, extremist christians, and the gun lobby aside from any issues. Further, the perception of "Corporate Welfare" however skewed it may be is tied to the Republicans. Which perception is worse? I've been to plenty of "beer joints" and heard plenty of griping about the job losses and deficit increases under Bush, not to mention the little matter of the fibs he told to get the military "ball" rolling in Iraq.
Of course I'm not trying to justify these positions. I just say them because I can.
Big business and the Christian right control the GOP. Trial lawers and labor unions control the Dems. Money controls them both.
So am I. So is Bill O'Reilly. So is Tazo for that matter. Independant doesn't mean you aren't a conservative or liberal, just that you aren't a member of any particular party.
Yeah, mac, I pretty much agree with "Republicans have become percieved as being in the pocket of big business particularly the oil and gas industry, extremist christians, and the gun lobby aside from any issues. Further, the perception of "Corporate Welfare" however skewed it may be is tied to the Republicans. Which perception is worse?"
I'm not sure that "worse" matters. Lotsa blue collar folks work in the oil and gas industry; their paychecks are more important to them than the political issue therein (IMO). A fair number of them
ARE extremist Christians. A high percentage of them own guns, whether or not they've joined any pro-gun group.
What's important to you or to me isn't necessarily as important to Joe Sixpack.