UK Students face £9000 fees

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by iStudentUK, Nov 3, 2010.

  1. iStudentUK macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #1
    As title says, future UK students may have to pay up to £9000 per year in tuition fees, up from ~£3300.

    Seems very steep to me. Although the threshold to paying it back will raise by £6000 to £21000, it means many people will be paying back loans for many years. 9% above £21k can make quite a dent in the wage packet!

    I was annoyed I missed out on the old system (pay ~£1100 upfront) but I'm seriously relieved that I missed this increase!

    Compare this to France where fees are around €250 per year!
     
  2. OllyW Moderator

    OllyW

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    #2
    Serves them right for bragging how cheap they get their Macs. ;)
     
  3. Queso macrumors G4

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    #3
    The entire focus of higher education in the UK has been off centre for most of the past couple of decades. The Major government's policy of expanding the universities at the cost of scaling back all other options has given us a country full of media studies graduates which has to import plumbers and electricians.

    If I were in Number 10 I would push that entire pendulum back, get more budget and incentives into training for the skilled trades, and get the universities focussed back onto economically viable subjects that lead to real professions or high technology courses that will develop our economy in the future.

    What we have had since 1991 has been a steadily degrading farce, and an entire generation has been failed as a result. The fact it cannot now even be funded by the taxpayer as it was for decades shows that.
     
  4. obeygiant macrumors 68040

    obeygiant

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    #4
    I think tuition is around $20,000 a year at Michigan State.
     
  5. Queso macrumors G4

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    #5
    Yes, but the funding structure for US universities is different. In the UK our taxes used to completely fund higher education. Taxes have not dropped, yet suddenly education cannot be funded. Where's that money gone?

    Probably paying the benefits of all the unemployed media studies graduates that could have be skilled workers in some other field had government continued to provide appropriate training incentives to businesses.
     
  6. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #6
    This isn't something to brag about. It is appalling, and it looks like UK universities are headed in the direction ours went years ago.
     
  7. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #7
    When the value of a service (college) is artificially inflated by government creating demand out of thin air (taxation and funding of college courses) the end result is ever-increasing prices as there is no market liquidity for supply/demand. The colleges know they have a steady supply of customers provided by the government, so they know they can charge whatever they want to.

    Very similar to what happens when government takes over healthcare or government requires insurance plans to cover every single ailment known to man. It's an automatic monopoly created by the government itself. The system is wholly unsustainable. It's been proven over and over in history.
     
  8. flopticalcube macrumors G4

    flopticalcube

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    #8
    Unfortunately you analysis is flawed in several respects. I'll address your healthcare analogy. When the gov't takes over healthcare, demand is not inflated. People do not get any more sick, in fact the opposite has been shown to be true. Who is mandating that all ailments be covered by insurance?
     
  9. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

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    #9
    UK universities compete on an international stage - and a large proportion of income is open-market.

    Government educational funding has never been particularly generous - and this is why they've been demanding that they be allowed to charge students additional fees.

    So no, you've got it back to front. The government has limited income to university establishments, and they want to be allowed to charge higher supplemental fees on the open market.

    How does the fact that the US healthcare system is currently one of the most expensive in the world - and twice the cost against GDP compared to the UK fit into your argument? And the US fares worse on infant mortality and life expectancy?

    That's right... it blows your argument out of the water.

    http://www.visualeconomics.com/healthcare-costs-around-the-world_2010-03-01/


    What he said.
     
  10. iStudentUK thread starter macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #10
    Yeah pretty much this.

    I'm not for a too elitist approach, but we have gone too far. Why have degrees in media studies or fashion? It's not for me to say what career people want to go into, but surely a more vocational approach would be better- e.g. apprenticeships.

    Fewer university students and fewer degree courses, more vocational places and key skills courses.
     
  11. northy124 macrumors 68020

    northy124

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    #11
    I'm looking at £10,000 - £20,000 before the fee hikes so I feel even more screwed :( still for a top class education it is worth it so I have no problem with any price hikes :) and those that do should look at how much they value a quality education.

    @iStudentuk, Can I ask where you for the 250 Euros a year for France from?
     
  12. Scuby macrumors regular

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    #12
    The biggest problem with fees in the UK is that they're marketed really badly. Tell someone who's never had more than £10/week pocket money that they'll get £40,000 in debt and of course they're going to worry about it!

    However, explain that if they go to uni then they'll have to pay a slightly higher rate of tax (remember it's not 9% more, it's 9% of anything over £21k) and it doesn't seem nearly so bad.

    Heard someone being interviewed on the radio today, and they were saying they were really worried about the increase in fees because of the lack of jobs at the moment. Now obviously a lack of jobs is a concern, but has nothing to do eith fees or student debt - if you don't have a job, you din't pay anything back! If you never get a job, the debt disappears. Fundamentally, this is just a limited time period tax, which you can choose to pay as a lump sum to get rid of that tax.

    My message to students: take the loan, enjoy uni, and when you get a job you'll realise that paying back a little more in tax each month is barely noticeable.

    David
     
  13. paddy macrumors 6502a

    paddy

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    #13
    Cut the defence budget to cover the shortfall in spending. Btw Fivepoint, your point on gov manipulation in this case is ridiculous, as proven by Firestarter.
     
  14. iJon macrumors 604

    iJon

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    #14
    Wow, are you serious? Is that in state or out of state tuition?

    I can get close to my 4 year degree for 20k at my major university.
     
  15. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #15
    I wonder what would happen if colleges were subject to the same ups and downs of supply/demand as the hardware manufacturing world, or the fast food restaurant world, or the airline industry. Bottom line, we would have cheaper and more efficient services, more/better options for higher education, higher quality institutions and institutions that teach less (meet your needs exactly so they can provide cost cuts).

    The cost of the higher education world will continue to skyrocket year after year, just like healthcare, because it's market has been subsidized and manipulated by our governments. Meanwhile, the relative price of manufactured goods (DeWalt), services (Netflix), restaurants (McDonalds), technologies (Apple Computer), will continue to go down while quality, quantity, capability continue to go up.

    Your failure to grasp these basic tenants of capitalism represents an unwillingness to accept the lessons of history, or simple ignorance regarding the existence of said lessons.
     
  16. paddy macrumors 6502a

    paddy

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    #16
    Education, healthcare etc ≠ the video rental, hammer purchasing and digital music industry. Ridiculous comparison.
     
  17. iStudentUK thread starter macrumors 65816

    iStudentUK

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    #17
    It actually varies a bit between degrees (eg MA/MSc tuition is more than BA/BSc), which is why I didn't give a direct source. Think least is around €100 and most around €1000. http://www.understandfrance.org/France/Education.html gives a good overview.

    Belgium has a similar system, except tuition varies with family income. Even the most affluent backgrounds only results in around €600 per year.

    The continent in general seems to have a better university system. Higher education is very important for growth and the economy. As I said before, I'm not trying to be elitist- I don't think university should be reserved for the top 2% or anything like that. However, it doesn't make sense to have 50% of young people gaining degrees. What's the point? 50% in some kind of education- great. Apprenticeships, vocational courses etc are very useful.

    £9000 is just going to put people off. I would still have gone because the career I'm entering requires a degree. When my girlfriend heard the news she immediately said she wouldn't have gone to university for £9000 a year. In her career a degree is helpful but not required.

    Fewer university places, fewer universities and fewer courses. Then reduce tuition fees!
     
  18. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

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    #18
    fivepoint do you actually have anything interesting to say about the UK education system or are you just here to spout claptrap?
     
  19. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #19
    It's too bad that the government has to manipulate, regulate, and stomp companies in the Education and Healthcare fields until they bend to their will or disappear completely. If it continues to happen, you won't see innovation like that of Apple. You won't see cost reductions like those of Wal-Mart. You don't see entrepreneurship of Google, Netflix, Facebook, etc. anywhere near education! You liberals are shooting yourself and the rest of society in the foot with your pro-government ideology.
     
  20. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #20
    if you do that education would become worse that it already is that only the people coming from the mega rich families will be able to afford it.
    Hell right now the middle class is already getting screwed out of education. They make to much to get a lot of aid but not enough for the parents to be able to afford it.
     
  21. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

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    #21
    Nope. Still not relevant to UK education.

    Do you want to have one last shot?
     
  22. fivepoint, Nov 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2010

    fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #22
    It's very relevant to UK higher education. It's just that you don't want to listen to reason. It's just that you're ok with the Status Quo or at least ok with any solution as long as it involves massive new tax increases to pay for massive new public higher education programs.

    BS. My wife grew up in a poor family. She took out loans to attend a private liberal arts college. Month by month we're paying them off. WE don't blame anyone, we don't wish someone else has paid for them, we don't wish there had been an entitlement program to get her there for free.
     
  23. antster94 macrumors 6502a

    antster94

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    #23
    It's a complete joke. It's simply ridiculous how they expect all members of society to be able to afford this. I'm fortunate in that if I can't manage the fees then my parents can help out, but for many this is just going to end their education prematurely.
     
  24. chris200x9 macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    who goes to michigan state? Wayne state FTW! About 9K a year...


    also party school :p
     
  25. Scuby macrumors regular

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    #25
    See, this is the bit i don't understand, and why i think there is a huge problem eith the *perception* of tuition fees, rather than the actual situation.

    Why do i say that? Because the tuition fees have absolutely nothing to do with your parents' earnings. They are entirely funded through the student loan, which you pay off with your earnings after you graduate and after you get a job. Yes, parents can still make a difference to being able to afford uni, but that's related to the cost of living (which the loan also covers, but probably not enough if you want to do more than just exist while at uni). So the bit relevant to parents has not changed.

    Like i said above, the loans are there to pay everything upfront, and as you won't pay back anything unless you get a well paid job at the end of it, it shouldn't stop anyone being able to afford to go to uni - its simply that people don't understand where the burden of the cost lies.

    Just to make sure people understand the impact of the loans, under the current system (which is worse than the proposed new one in terms of how much you pay back) i get ~£2500 (pre-tax) per month, and then pay just £110 of that in student loan. And that is really the *only* figure that is relevant. Yes i do know how much i owe, but that makes zero difference to how much i pay back - it just means i'll pay for a longer/shorter period of time, but to be honest the longer i work he more my salary increases and so the less i notice the student loan repayments.

    David
     

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