UKIP, du Front National, Alternative für Deutschland, and others due for a renaissance

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #1
    The EU socialist political elites have betrayed the citizenry. Expect right-of-center Euroskeptic parties to do very well in future elections. European Trumps will arise everywhere.

    Call the Sons of Descartes, Locke, and Newton; the Armies of Kant, Spinoza, and Voltaire; the Knights of Rousseau, Hume, and Leibniz. Tell them to draw their swords.

    We shall fight in France, we shall fight in Brussels, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend Western culture, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender,

    Let the Jihad of the Enlightenment begin.
     
  2. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #2
    I'm going to drink a glass or two of Stella Artois ("wifebeaters") and make myself a nice plate of frites (with a tasty garlic aioli dipping sauce) to show my support for our Belgian friends.

    Signing up for some sort of anti-Muslim Crusade? No thanks. Didn't work out too well the last time we tried that crap.
     
  3. Benjamin Frost Suspended

    Benjamin Frost

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    #3
    Indeed.

    I’ll be amazed if the UK doesn't vote to leave the European Union now.
    --- Post Merged, Mar 22, 2016 ---
    Islamic terrorism is the Nazism of the 21st century.
     
  4. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #4
    For indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes. Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities!
     
  5. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #5
    Were you aiming for pompous conceited self-indulgence with that message?
     
  6. Benjamin Frost Suspended

    Benjamin Frost

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    #6
    He was.
     
  7. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #7
    Don't fear rationalism. Embrace it.
     
  8. Benjamin Frost Suspended

    Benjamin Frost

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    #8
    Don't think he meant your fine post.
     
  9. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #9
    I think the people you quoted would be the first tell you that self-serving justification, while logical at a casual glance, isn't the type of rationalism they'd support.
     
  10. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #10
    "Free movement between European states must abandoned. IS militants are too well organized, and their murderous intent is uncheckable. Given their numbers, broad presence, and organizational capacity, terror attacks will occur soon all over Europe. These people exist in huge numbers. These attacks in Paris and Brussels were not lone-wolf attacks by deranged swivel-eyed mad-men. These are people with military capability and appear to exist in every country in Europe."

    -- George Galloway, British MP
     
  11. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #11
    The UK isn't part of the Schengen Area, so his opinions risk rather complete invalidation when ISIS strikes London. But he was speaking on RT, which is rather in favor of Brexit, petty nationalism and post-liberalism.
     
  12. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

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    #12
    Actually I'm surprised at Galloway's words. He's far left, anti establishment and has been a supporter of Islam and small scale Islamism in the UK for a long time. His support for Brexit is mainly to do with his desire for closer political control and his overall Marxist viewpoint (I wouldn't paint him as a petty nationalist).

    Although I very much dislike the man, this is a topic that he should know something about since he's spent a great part of his time in those communities. For him to make this statement is significant.
     
  13. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #13
    Careful now, you're starting to sound a lot like those ISIS types.
     
  14. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #14
    Actually, I did.
     
  15. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #15
    So we're now cheering the impending rise of authoritarian states....

    WTF is happening to the world right now?
     
  16. jerwin macrumors 65816

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    #16
    The world has decided it needs strong men; men with wills of iron; men who can crush the rebellions with one swift stroke!
     
  17. juanm, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #17
    I don't know, but it's getting scary. I think the People ****ed up when they became too lazy to be actively involved in politics, and decided it would be easier to just vote once in a while, let the politicians do their thing without supervision, and then blame everything on them later on.

    We have perverted democracy, by being irresponsible and not holding our elected officials accountable for their actions.

    Let's face it, we're paying politicians to have someone to blame when everything goes haywire, because it's more comfortable than owning our own responsibilities on a day to day basis.

    Somewhere along the way (between the late 50s and the early 80s, depending on the country), us westerners decided to give a pass to politicians who cheated and lied to our face, and from there it spiralled downwards into what we have now:

    US: Trump vs Clinton. A dangerous clown vs a corrupt career politician. Enough said
    UK: Cameron, BoJo, and the like, selling the country to medieval monarchs.
    France: Ineffective (and often corrupt) politicians, disconnected from reality.
    Spain: a Mafia
    Turkey: a Stalin in the making
    Etc.

    Add to that the major shift we're going to witness in the next fifteen years (artificial intelligence replacing most jobs) and you get the recipe for the largest economic crisis to date, considering the people I just mentioned are the ones supposed to manage it.
     
  18. chown33 macrumors 604

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    #18
    But when you look at the history of such men in the 20th century (even starting in the late 19th), you'll find that they inevitably fail at doing so. It might take a while, but they do fail. Just like in Star Wars.
     
  19. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #19
    Like who? Stalin? Died in his bed of old age. Mao? Died in his bed of old age. Ho Chi Minh? Same. Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il? Ditto. Fidel Castro is likely to die peacefully at home as well. And with the partial exception of Stalin, the political systems they created are still operating.

    Seems to me that 20th century strongmen have done pretty well for themselves.

    /non sequitur
     
  20. Scepticalscribe, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #20
    What utter tosh. What an……unbalanced post…..

    Anyway, most of Europe doesn't even have 'socialist elites' ruling them, and never had; some of them did indeed elect social democratic governments, which turned out to have been some of the most civilised experiments and experiences of governance in recorded history.

    But, unsurprisingly, you are aiming at straw men.

    Yes. Well said.

    I, too, drank (robust, Trappist) Belgian beer in solidarity...

    Yes. They are, alas.


    Agreed.

    Seriously, you quote George Galloway?

    No, this can - and ought to be dealt with - by other means.

    No. We can have reasoned debate, serious interrogation of what is happening, respect for our own secular culture and rights, sensible - but serious - security, conditional welcome for refugees, and immigrants but wholesale respect for human rights…..this is not impossible, just a large challenge.

    Oh, by the dangling crown jewels, those small spherical objects, of the gods I don't believe in, or whose existence I greatly doubt, - you are not really, truly, seriously invoking that moronic Tarzan vocabulary - you know, the one we last heard in Europe in the 1930s, that deranged 'strongman' vocabulary.

    Politics 101 for those suffering from Historical Amnesia - (Not Something We In Europe Usually Suffer From): Dear Divinities In Whose Existence I Doubt: Strongman = Dictator…….most usually from the fascist side of the political spectrum, that arc with rainbow colours….

    No, @juanm, since the late 70s, the left became complacent and stupendously intellectually lazy and failed to challenge the right - intellectually - and address the legitimate concerns of many of those who supported them; in essence, they abdicated from partaking in serious and challenging intellectual debate, preferring lofty sneers and easy condescending contempt, and thus, they allowed the right to define, frame and set the contours of intellectual, social, political and economic debate.

    To be honest, Stalin died with his cabinet standing around him quivering in terror lest he recover.

    However, your wider point about whether autocratic states - of both right and left - have a mechanism which allows for a peaceful (and acceptable succession) is a very valid one.

    Democracy - for all that it is maligned - allows for a number of things that are so obvious, we sometimes tend to overlook them.

    The first - the most obvious - is that elected governments have a mandate: A mandate to govern (validated by scrutineers, and domestic and international observers) and a mandate for their programme for government.

    The second, equally important, is that it allows for a mechanism - an accepted mechanism - for the transfer of political power - that doesn't involve revolution, bloodshed, mass murder and breathtaking violence to achieve, or implement.

    And the third, is that it allows for a means or mechanism whereby the defeated candidate (especially if that was the incumbent) can exit power without running the risk of losing life, liberty, position, privilege, - or needing to stay on in power long enough to die in your bed.

    Elections solve succession problems, - in a manner that is widely accepted - which is something most other systems fail to deliver.
     
  21. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #21
    Let's see...

    Stalin? Died peacefully (more like in a state of weary paranoia) in his bed. The Soviet Union died in much the same way, quietly collapsing in on itself in '91.

    Mao? Same deal. They kept the communist style, and the general attitudes. But at the same time, China is the fastest growing market economy in the world at the moment. They're more like authoritarian capitalists these days.

    Ho Chi Minh? Vietnam is slowly making their way over into a market economy. Currently, they're sorta half and half.

    The Kim Dynasty? Their great vision ended up with a country that looks something like a college psychology experiment gone haywire.

    Fidel Castro? Cuba is about the only example of pure, soviet style communism left in the world. Even without the US enforced sanctions, it hasn't worked out too well for them.

    So yeah, the dictators and despots of the 20th century didn't meet the ends they should have. But barring one, their governments either failed miserably, or only barely outlived them.
     
  22. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #22
    Ah, @Renzatic, I have just noticed that @aaronvan's list curiously confined itself to left wing dictators - some of whom were undoubtedly completely insane not to say quite psychotic - but - for some strange reason - he has excluded the class of deranged dictator emanating from the right wing of the political perspective. Doubtless, this is an unfortunate oversight, one that will soon be remedied in the interests of objective historical inquiry and intellectual integrity.
     
  23. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #23
    I'd wager you and I evolve in significantly different circles ;) and I speak accordingly to what I have witnessed, nothing more.
    No, to what? All that you describe, while true, is the laziness of our representatives, whereas I spoke of the laziness of the middle class that elected those representatives and failed to hold them accountable for the mistakes that you mention. That's especially patent in countries with laws that facilitated two parties systems, where they have (both) fallen into the easy game of waiting for the other to do a bad job, so they could be the next in power by default, without any hint of self-criticism. Surfing over a welfare state during a relatively very long period of peace and prosperity, trusting -or worse, being in denial and pretending to trust- the Left to act as a necessary counterweight to the right and assuming that everything will fall into place by itself and be alright is what has lead us to where we are now.
     
  24. Renzatic, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016

    Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #24
    That might be because almost every single far right ideology of the 20th century all died during their inceptions, alongside their founders. The only exception to this would be the Khmer Rouge, but they only lingered for about 20 odd years before folding entirely.

    edit: scratch that. The Khmer Rouge were communists. I'm mixing them up with something else, though I can't recall what...

    Comparatively, the extreme left ideologies enjoyed a modicum of success, which is probably why they're they're easier to bring up in conversations like this.
     
  25. Scepticalscribe, Mar 23, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #25
    Maybe not so different. I think we are expressing broadly similar things - and thoughts - from - perhaps - slightly differing perspectives.

    In recent times, over coffee, (and, an occasional beer) I have given sharp voice to some of these thoughts to the shocked surprise of some of the (radical left wing male) university teachers who taught me - and I say that as someone who votes left, but is appalled - and have been appalled since the 80s, at the easy, intellectually lazy, self-indulgent thinking - substituting lazy sneers for serious analysis - that the left - and many of the wider 'chattering class' who vote for them - have sought an easy and complacent and self-satisfying refuge in.
     

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