Understand this Obama supporters!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by gregdrummeraz, Sep 18, 2008.

  1. gregdrummeraz macrumors 6502

    Jun 7, 2007
    Glendale, az
  2. NT1440 macrumors G4


    May 18, 2008
    funny, we spread more terror than anyone else overseas
  3. gauchogolfer macrumors 603


    Jan 28, 2005
    American Riviera
    I guess I'm going to need some guidance from you on why this should affect my vote one way or the other?
  4. Kashchei macrumors 65816


    Apr 26, 2002
    Meat Space
    Greg, you might want to audition to become a Fox News broadcaster. You seem to have a hidden talent for repeating empty talking points and attempting to instill fear.
  5. gauchogolfer macrumors 603


    Jan 28, 2005
    American Riviera
    "I know my country has not perfected itself. At times we struggle to keep the promise of liberty."

    Yah, such clownish words. :rolleyes:
  6. gauchogolfer macrumors 603


    Jan 28, 2005
    American Riviera
  7. bobber205 macrumors 68020


    Nov 15, 2005
    They DID vote for a mistake. This veteran is retarded...
    It's too bad that most of our soldiers come from the poorest among us. :(
  8. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus


    Jan 9, 2004
    Grand Rapids, MI, USA
    I think that's harsh, don't you? I mean this person served our country, whether or not this war was a good or right war.

    I empathize with his believing in a cause and wanting to see that cause through. The problems with this war, however, are... (1) that this war effort requires the efforts of lots of soldiers who signed on for tours of duty that got unreasonably extended or soldiers who signed on for the Guard and ended up in Iraq who don't feel the way this individual does and yet also risk their lives; (2) that this war involves not only Iraqi civilians who support this view but also thousands and thousands of innocents who were killed who did not advocate or ask for this kind of solution to their problems; (3) that this all comes at an extreme expense to US taxpayers at a time when our economy is in a situation so dire that it could plunge the entire world into a decades long recession; (4) that there is no real end in sight in Iraq or Afghanistan, and yet we are now undertaking campaigns in Pakistan and threatening Iran.

    He supports a cause that he believes in. I applaud his belief in his cause, the reasons he believes in his cause, and the values he upholds. But I'm sorry. It's time for people to stand up and say the hard things to say: We just can't be doing this.
  9. Cleverboy macrumors 65816


    May 25, 2007
    Pocket Universe, nth Dimensional Complex Manifold
  10. swingerofbirch macrumors 68040

    Oct 24, 2003
    The Amalgamated States of Central North America
    The video is very sobering, even though I disagree with its conclusion. The Iraq war is a real event that has caused real people to lose their lives and caused unbelievable pain to Iraqis and also as this soldier pointed out certain positive changes.

    I also believe that the United States made a grave mistake in invading Iraq, but I believe that we do have a responsibility to promote stability in Iraq, starting not with freedom or elections but with security, stability, infrastructure, and economy. You cannot start by building a government and democracy. You must start with the economy and providing for people's needs. I believe it was a mistake to focus on elections and government. Iraq is oil rich and I believe our role should be in helping to guide the stability of Iraq in cooperation with many other countries including Iran.

    I honestly don't know what wold happen if the US withdrew quickly. I don't pretend to know. I have faith in Barack Obama to withdraw in a responsible way over time. That's the best I can do. There are no absolutes. I won't pretend to know what's best, but I have the most belief in Barack Obama.

    I think the soldier speaking needs to find meaning in the loss of his leg, and the loss of soldiers' lives he knew. That's very easy to understand. I could never say on the whole sum, with the mountains of the dead behind us and the mountain still growing, whether something so positive in the future will positively balance the sacrifice made. I don't like to think of history ever writing pain and suffering as the benefactor of good fortune in current times. I suppose the best is to just accept that it has happened. At its essence, people died in war. They didn't die in the future when there may be benefits perceived as a result of their death. They died in a moment where their families were affected in that moment. It's as simple as death. I don't know that any stories about the death are particularly true. Soldiers died and are dying. It's a moment. And it's reality. But stories around death, explaining death, are not reality in the moment of death. Death is not malevolent or benevolent. But it is terrifying and a cause of suffering to those near it and insufferable to the families of those who died.

    I suppose it's only possible to find meaning in our own lives. I don't think that we can find our meaning in history.

    I know my words will not do my thoughts justice, as I am trying to write how I feel, and how I feel is complicated.
  11. Sky Blue Guest

    Sky Blue

    Jan 8, 2005

    So this guy is saying that we should stick with the war because people have died? Never mind that Iraq has a huge budget surplus whilst our country is following apart... and that song at the end made me LOL.
    I can understand the guy and i feel for him ... he lost part of his leg in this joke of a war and he can't come to terms with that.

    I don't get it...

    This made me laugh:

  12. kabunaru Guest

    Jan 28, 2008
    Obama should be president.
    If not Obama, then Nader.
    Never McCain.
    No more republican party. If I was president of the United States, I would abolish the Republican party.
  13. r.j.s Moderator emeritus


    Mar 7, 2007
    Yes, because the pres has that kind of power … :rolleyes:
  14. zap2 macrumors 604


    Mar 8, 2005
    Washington D.C
    This guy doesn't get it. We're not helping them...we're hurting. You can maybe make the argument that getting rid of Hussein was good, since he was clearly a bad guy, but removing the power figure before the people are ready to take over is bad. We created a vacuum, with no on to fill Suddam's place, and a people who weren't ready for the challenge. Now, we're burning cash and cost lives because of it. And now they want us out...the "terrorist" have even said so....let them figure out there own issues. I wouldn't want a foreign people tell me how to run America.

    People have to want this change, to bring it about themselves. By all means support it, but we can't force it.

    Oh, and trying to use a vet to convince us? I mean come on, these men and women fall on both side, while fight in a war is brave thing to do, it does not mean you all of a sudden start making the best call on foreign policy

    And that 2nd video, what was that? Quotes taking out of context to prove of evil the Obama's are? More lies and smears....and honestly, they weren't that bad. Its them saying America isn't flawless, which you know, it isn't!
  15. NT1440 macrumors G4


    May 18, 2008

    I thought being a veteran was end all and be all of experience! Remember, if your a vet, you can do no wrong and you dont have to answer questions with those pesky things we call answers if being a vet is your main qualification.;)
  16. jplan2008 macrumors regular

    Feb 15, 2008
    Yes indeed. But not because poor people are stupid. If there's a "volunteer" military, then it's much easier to sacrifice the soldiers. The people with power and influence don't usually have the worry that their sons will have to die. (it's unusual that three out of four of the people on the ticket have sons who are going to or are in Iraq. Not sure in what capacity they're serving, though.)

    The consequences for deserting are steep. Federal prison. If you're there because it's your only opportunity for paid training, benefits, to go to college, etc., it's even more difficult to speak out.

    Google cognitive dissonance.

    And put in these beliefs and actions:

    -- I volunteered for this.
    -- I'm not a murderer.
    -- I don't want to get hurt or killed.
    -- I don't want my buddies to get hurt or killed.
    -- I'm killing people, or helping to kill people.
    -- (I got hurt)
    -- I'm watching my buddies get hurt and killed.

    Really, it's pretty sane to then come to the conclusion that what you're doing is just and right. Or, you change your beliefs about yourself. Now you're a paid killer. (then there are issues for any war, whether it be PTSD or whatever, for having seen and been part of such horror that is war.) It follows that it would be the minority that would decide it's a mistake, and speak out about it, no matter what evidence we think we're showing them.

    To the extent that people who aren't poor have probably had more education, and have had the leisure to "question authority," and those with even more wealth are accustomed to being part of decision-making in society, that would definitely help, too, in terms of having a more diverse cross-section of society represented.

    But that's why although I'm a pacifist, I'm for the draft. It's pretty sickening that for many, the only time they think it's o.k. for the government to "help" poor people is by asking them to kill and be killed. And it's virtually impossible for those that are there firsthand to look at it critically, and society as a whole to really look at it critically, if it's a volunteer military.
  17. Cleverboy macrumors 65816


    May 25, 2007
    Pocket Universe, nth Dimensional Complex Manifold
    It just sticks me that this guy says that "the soliders" say Iraq is better off. Of course, people need to keep their spirits up. Unfortunately, the people you NEED to be polling on whether someone is "better off" are the Iraqis. And they've been fairly unreliable on supplying pleasant platitudes about American occupation. That's kind of a problem, and its a shame.
    One can't improve themselves if they don't know what their own flaws are. If making America better consisted of plugging our ears and chanting how great it is... then I think we'd be in a huge amount of trouble and politicians would have absolutely NOTHING to run on... least of all... "change".

    ~ CB
  18. yojitani macrumors 68000


    Apr 28, 2005
    An octopus's garden
    It's a shame that the rhetoric of the war was and is so confusing that this soldier doesn't seem to understand why the US was there, what the toll has been, etc...
  19. Prof. macrumors 601


    Aug 17, 2007
    I'm gonna sound like a complete ass**** here but... that means nothing.

    I had a long convo with a friend of mine who was in Iraq and him all of his buddies that were with him overseas said it was a mistake going over there. They said something along the lines of... "we went there for the wrong reasons. We attacked a country who didn't attack us. We should have focused on Afghanistan, not Iraq."

    Obama-Biden 2008

    Oh, BTW. They are supporting Obama too.
  20. Iscariot macrumors 68030


    Aug 16, 2007
    Oh the irony.

    You know the reason the United States continues to lag behind the rest of the first world in just about everything, from education to healthcare? Because nobody can get anything accomplished with both their hands in giant foam #1 fingers. Patriotism is loving your country despite of (even because of!) it's flaws, not covering your ears and shouting "la la la we're number one!"

  21. Peace macrumors Core


    Apr 1, 2005
    Space--The ONLY Frontier
    A true patriot stands up for what's right.

    I'm a veteran. I don't like war. War hurts people. Sometimes it's necessary and most of the time it's not. The Iraq war was and is not necessary.

    I'm a veteran and a patriot and I will stand up for what is right.

    McCain is wrong for this country.

    Any way you look at it.

    If you're a true patriot you will stand up to this current government. That's what the Constitution says to do.
  22. SMM macrumors 65816


    Sep 22, 2006
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    Besides their service, and all that entails (which is a lot), once it gets to a certain point, their opinions are just one person's view, like everyone else. An Iraqi veteran can talk authoritatively about that which he witnessed, which is going to be a small piece of the overall picture, but he/she does not get a free ride to be an expert on the circumstance which led us to war, or even the right or wrong of it. There are thousands of vets on VetsVoices.Com, who's experienced/opinions are 180 Degrees different from this vet. That was my experience from Vietnam. Some believed in the war, before and afterwards, some just the opposite. Some 'lost the faith' while being there and others retrospectively, after they got home. I also know of some who did not believe while there, and only did so years later. These were rare. I secretly believe they thought one cannot be a hero and not make the war a righteous cause, and being thought a hero was now important. That, of course is speculation on my part.
  23. és: macrumors 6502a


    I must have clicked the wrong link or something. All I got was the Obamas telling the truth about America's current failing.

    Unless the OP believes America to be perfect, in which case he should just say that so the entire world can call him a clown like he's just done to Obama.
  24. gregdrummeraz thread starter macrumors 6502

    Jun 7, 2007
    Glendale, az

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