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MacRumors

macrumors bot
Original poster
Apr 12, 2001
54,574
16,688
CNet reports that various Universities have been working on plans to offer legal music downloading services to college students.

Universities have been significantly affected by the proliferation of the file trading networks -- with increased bandwidth usage, as well as legal disputes with the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA). According to this article, there has already been a meeting between University officials and a number of online music service representatives -- including Apple Computer.

The May meeting underscored different expectations from both sides -- with University officials requesting a fixed-fee/unlimited download service. Licensing issues would apparently make this difficult to implement, according to music representatives.

Proposals from individual services (such as Apple) are to be returned to Universities, but details of final plans are unknown.
 

arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
16,073
5,304
It'd be nice for Apple to get in on the ground floor. Not sure if only one service would be allowed to play?

Apple needs to also deploy its windows solution to really be a player.

arn
 

sparkleytone

macrumors 68020
Oct 28, 2001
2,307
0
Greensboro, NC
hopefully the uni's are willing to drop the unlimited thing. i don't see apple ever accepting something like that. if its a deal maker, then with apple it'd most likely be the deal breaker.
 

SeaFox

macrumors 68030
Jul 22, 2003
2,583
895
Somewhere Else
The May meeting underscored different expectations from both sides -- with University officials requesting a fixed-fee/unlimited download service. Licensing issues would apparently make this difficult to implement, according to music representatives.

Haha. I love how they say that. "Fixed Fee/Unlimited Download service would be difficult because of licensing issues" says the record companies. As though they have nothing to do with those licensing issues.
 

macjohnmcc

macrumors newbie
Nov 13, 2002
15
0
Houston, TX, USA
Do you really think that the labels would agree to unlimited downloads for a reasonable fee? I don't think so.

With the bandwidth available to students today they could have a copy of every song ever produced in no time at all if they could download all they wanted for a flat low fee.
 

ogun7

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2001
187
57
Originally posted by arn
It'd be nice for Apple to get in on the ground floor. Not sure if only one service would be allowed to play?

Apple needs to also deploy its windows solution to really be a player.

arn
I hope that the 'end of the year' time frame for WinTunes is soon enough to stave off competition from Microsoft and Real Networks.
If anyone can convince the the recording cartel to make licensing flexible enough to slow down 'illegal' downloads, it's Uncle Steve & Apple.
Sometimes it seems that the RIAA would rather pay lawyers than make an income off of fair DRM.
 

pretentious

macrumors regular
Sep 4, 2002
214
0
"Reality"
I think Apple should think about promotions after they bring out the iTMS for Windows (which is hopefully soon :( ), to drum up support on college campuses and malls.
Think large discounts like iTMS music passes were you get 20 tracks free w/ a special password on a card. or say a student discount for music were you get 10%-20% off on iTunes purchases if you go to a certain school.
The cool thing is that they can use these same promotions to people who support them in other ways such as those who buy iPods, PowerBooks, or .Mac.

I know that this won't pull everyone from free alternatives such as Kazaa, but at least it might entice them to realize that this plan is by far easier and better than getting slammed by the RIAA.
 

AppleMatt

macrumors 68000
Mar 17, 2003
1,781
20
UK
Originally posted by sparkleytone
hopefully the uni's are willing to drop the unlimited thing. i don't see apple ever accepting something like that. if its a deal maker, then with apple it'd most likely be the deal breaker.

I agree, but maybe Apple could offer something along the lines of "you pay us $10,000 for the year, your students can download 12,000 songs"

Thinking about that comment, and replacing the figures with anything, I can see how that would be a problem, with Apple only making 10c per song.

hmmmmm

AppleMatt
 

vrapan

macrumors regular
Jul 16, 2003
175
0
UK
maybe Apple could offer something along the lines of "you pay us $10,000 for the year, your students can download 12,000 songs"

Forgetting the numbers since it could easily be 10000 songs for 90000$ just as easily this will realyl not work. Simply because after the quota is met what are the unis gonna do? buy another bunch of songs ? and why would they want to go on and redistribute it? I think they would much prefer if it was a cheaper than the 99c/song for people on campus. Because if the quota is met and the uni does not buy some more then the students will resort back to Kazaa and the rest.

I think that for the unis a cheaper rate with more restrictions might be smarter and maybe combined as someone else said with a free promotion of a number of songs for the service. As a "gift" for buying some Apple hardware or a smaller bundle for trying out the service for free. Over all I dont see why Unis should get preferential treatment over this.
 

cb911

macrumors 601
Mar 12, 2002
4,125
4
BrisVegas, Australia
it would be good for Apple to get into Uni's like that. if there was an easy way for students to get music it would probably really take off.

wouldn't it be in the RIAA's best interests to contact the University's and have a part in negotiating some sort of deal?
 

visor

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2003
341
0
in bed
With DRM, all kind of solutions are thinkable.

If I was the music industriy, my premier task would be to infiltrate Universities with DRM Music that cannot be shared, or not be shared unlimited.
That would would, within a few years, take out all the Universities from sharing Music, as their music would be unsharable.

Now, I'd be nice to have an analysys of how much music in the share engines come from the universities. That could be calculated as loss that can be invested in giving music away for free - Cause you'll need a very good offer to move students form a an all free sharing mechanism, to an not so free no sharing mechanism.

But then again - as the Student group is one of the primier selling targets of the MI, giving them everything for free is a little critical. Even if they can't multiply it around the world.

It'll be very interestig to see what they come up with.
Legal issues are imho bound to fail - mainly because it is not in the interest of the country to sue all of its elite to come with stupid copyright issues. That would drain a lot of brain power to - what? The MI feeling better?

BTW, imho it is crutial for mankind to share information as much as it can - even to insure survival in the future. This is, of course not limited to music, rather to more valuable information.
I'm disgusted by certain tendencies to copyright and patent every brainfart anyone ever had, and charging billions in case anyone else comes up with something similar.
 

WinterMute

Moderator emeritus
Jan 19, 2003
4,775
4
London, England
This would significantly increase the bandwidth load from my Uni systems, to the point where it would become a real issue, it's bad enough that the students spend all day playing web games without allowing them the option to legally download audio files, video would be next and no-one would get anything done.

From a productivity point of view this is a bad move, from a revenue point of view its a shrewd one.

The option to limit the choice of music to particular areas would be interesting, as then we could have an on-line server for all the music we use in the academic process.

Still, we don't have iTMS in the UK yet, I'd imagine we might see this in 2010 ;)
 

daRAT

macrumors regular
May 12, 2002
134
0
Kennebunk, Maine, USA
I really don't see this as a great idea. As others have pointed out, the Uni's bandwidth would still be choked, all this would do is make money for someone, instead of theft.

Now, I wonder if they mean setting up music servers on Uni's network, uploading a large database of songs that would appleal to the students age groups and allowing the purchase/use from the Uni's server?

Possibliy with this type of setup the Uni could sell thier own subscriptions and buy blocks of songs to keep current.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
Re: Univerisities and Legal Music Services

Originally posted by Macrumors
CNet reports that various Universities have been working on plans to offer legal music downloading services to college students.

The May meeting underscored different expectations from both sides -- with University officials requesting a fixed-fee/unlimited download service. Licensing issues would apparently make this difficult to implement, according to music representatives.

This is clear evidence these universities have an inherently unreasonable position. Music sales has always been inherently pay-per -view. Whether via recorded media (vinyl record, phillips cassette, 8-track tape, CD, DVD) or via live performance (concerts). This is the revenue model of the industry.

To either widely tolerate free "sharing" of copyrighted works like friends copying and sharing cassettes, but in a far wider and more organized way (Napster), or via universities asking music vendors to allow student access to their entire catalogs of music, in digital form, with a university class internet bandwidth (T1-OC3 depending), is in effect a free giveaway of massive amounts of content to a very large percentage of the target BUYING market for the product.

My personal opinion? Not a "snowball's chance in hell".

Now maybe a university could become a vertical market franchisee of the Apple music service and receive a 5% commission (kickback, fee, bribe) for "access to their student body".

But to suggest any form of widespread mass download without some sort of pay-per-view scheme at all seems unrealistic. If the universities cannot see that, then I want to pay THEM a fixed fee and enroll as many students as I can find in their university, and they have to ramp up service delivery (classrooms, teachers, services) under our contract no matter how successful I am at finding and enrolling students to MY LOWER STANDARDS of admission.

Rocketman
 

bennetsaysargh

macrumors 68020
Jan 20, 2003
2,367
0
New York
i think this woiuld be a god idea, but they wouldn't be able to get discoubnts or anything like that. apple won't do it if they don't have pay for each song. they can't go unlimited. it would cut downon Kazaa users a bit, but only if they get it out for windows soon!
 

MrMacMan

macrumors 604
Jul 4, 2001
7,002
11
1 Block away from NYC.
They need to get the Windows version out FIRST!

All of those Universies aren't running Mac-Only!

Apple, you may be there, but much of the Students aren't with you!
 

QCassidy352

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2003
11,762
5,365
Bay Area
Originally posted by macjohnmcc
Do you really think that the labels would agree to unlimited downloads for a reasonable fee? I don't think so.

With the bandwidth available to students today they could have a copy of every song ever produced in no time at all if they could download all they wanted for a flat low fee.

uh... much like students now have unlimited downloads for free? All this would do is make some money change hands.
 

macjohnmcc

macrumors newbie
Nov 13, 2002
15
0
Houston, TX, USA
Originally posted by QCassidy352
uh... much like students now have unlimited downloads for free? All this would do is make some money change hands.

If there isn't a program soon for the students to buy the music online you can be sure a huge effort to block students from downloading music illegally will be in the works. Perhaps a bandwidth limit on the students if they can't stop the file sharing from happening. Are you really going to use up all your bandwidth sharing songs if you had a maximum traffic outbound and inbound each month? If you could only have 1GB each way per month I'm sure you wouldn't host those large free file servers.
 

asim

macrumors member
Jun 30, 2003
45
14
charlottesville, va
Bandwidth problems are usually in reference to external connections, not internally. What if universities paid to host an x-serve with x-raid that had all songs iTMS songs on it.

Then, apple created time-expiring computer licenses. Each student would be allowed to download maybe 100 (or 1000?) songs, but they would have to renew their computer's registration every semester as long as they are students. When they graduate, they could have the option of buying the songs, presumably at a discount of something like $0.10 per semester which they had it on their computer. That way if a single song took up one out of your quota for four years, you could own it already...


Forgetting the above, even if Apple sells them for $0.75 on campus and makes less money per song they may still be in great shape if the local institutions host the servers. Since Apple would not have to deal with server or bandwidth costs, which are their only incremental costs once the fixed costs are taken care of. Thus, Apple's gross income per song could be cut in half without a big hit in terms of profit.


There are a lot of other ways of setting things up, which I won't get into completely at the moment, but there are many ways in which they could set something up that would make money and make most people happy. Nothing will make everyone happy, and attempting to achieve this goal will doom one to failure.

afc
 

alset

macrumors 65816
Nov 9, 2002
1,262
0
East Bay, CA
This is the most unrealistic thing I have ever heard. The universities obviously have no idea what the industry is about. Unlimited tracks? Right......

Dan
 

peterjhill

macrumors 65816
Apr 25, 2002
1,095
0
Seattle, WA
This sounds like the recording industry trying to extort Universities. Why should the Universites pay for this service for the students. How many students would be willing to pay for this service in their bill to the university? Who benefits here? The recording industry. Will universities lose students if they don't offer free music to the students? Those students deserve to be lost.

This sounds like blackmail
 

coolsoldier

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2003
402
0
The 909
What if...

Apple offered unlimited free tracks to uni students on a "trial" basis (i.e. you can authenticate them while at the university but then you have to go back and pay for them to use them somewhere else). That way university students get unlimited free music, get hooked on iTMS, then graduate and become paying customers:cool:
 

phasornc

macrumors member
Jul 7, 2003
72
0
Universities and Bandwidth

Okay, here's the deal with Universities. The major research universities have more bandwidth than they need with Internet2, unfortunately I2 traffic is basically only between universities. On the good old Internet1, or just internet Universities have assymetric connections just like most cable and DSL subscriber. The unis dl bandwidth is near unlimited, however uploading IS limited. This limit was never a problem until university students start posting thousands of mp3s and VCDs etc on Kazaa. A legitimate DL service would hopefully eliminate the need from many students to share their collections. In addition, if the DL service could be moved to I2 bandwith would be even less of an issue.

Will we get unilimitted DLs for a fee. Who knows but for now the unis pretty much control I2 and it has a LOT of bandwidth
 

Docrjm

macrumors regular
Jun 22, 2003
142
0
WTF

Why should students get free or markedly reduced rate music. I don't recall this as an option when I attended. Not that long ago either. The BS argument of it being done illegally is also a tenuous argument., but then we are dealing with the US, were a criminal can sue you if he/ she injures themselves on your property during the course of their business!
If Apple want to offer students a discount fair enough. However, I would not expect to find the latest releases at the discounted price. Most stores only offer a discount on slightly older merchandise. Equally, if students receive a break then why not other sectors of the community??
 

macnews

macrumors 6502a
May 12, 2003
602
5
Idaho
Ok, this idea is just stupid and puts the universities at risk. Why should a Uni work some deal? What is the benefit? Protect them from lawsuits by the labels? Already covered as an ISP, they are not responsible for content (speaking in terms of public uni's, privates are much different).

Why this idea is stupid is it provides another drain hole for student fees. Oh sure, the students will have to pay for the downloads (funding in part the operation) but at least a few Unis will make the case for more student fees to "administer," "negotiate," "rape," the students of more money.

Providing a music download service has nothing to do with higher education. The universities want to do it because they don't like the headline "Students at State College sued for illegal music swapping." To avoid these they should support legal methods (like maybe an RIAA recommended service - hello Apple this would be a good thing to get), and strongly discourage and punish illegal downloads. I just see this as going from one extreme (doing nothing and pretending it doesn't happen "at our University") to the other (we will provide a legal music download service so as not to get bad press even though we have no clue about the music download industry).
 
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