Vatican in HIV condom row

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by iGav, Oct 9, 2003.

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  1. iGav macrumors G3

    Mar 9, 2002
    The Vatican and the Catholic Church eh'... :rolleyes:


    link it here....

    or full story about the loonies current rant.... :rolleyes:

  2. -hh macrumors 68020


    Jul 17, 2001
    NJ Highlands, Earth
    Regardless of how one feels about the entire issue, I was particularly humored to learn that reportedly, the Vatican owned a Condom factory in Italy ~50 years ago...

    This was reported in "LA Popessa" (Warner Books; May 1983, by Paul and Arlington, Rene Murphy;ISBN 0446512583), which is a controversial biography of Sister Mary Pascalina Lehnert, who had been Pope Pius XII's "housekeeper" for fifty years (which includes many years prior to him being elevated).

  3. patrick0brien macrumors 68040


    Oct 24, 2002
    The West Loop

    Wow. Jeez. I really need more coffee.

    I thought the thread's title was "Vatican in HIV condom now"

  4. FriarTuck macrumors 6502


    May 26, 2003
    Chicago area
    "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%

    Bad info is bad info, and to the extent anyone is spreading bad info they should knock it off. Whenever the Church fails to carefully guard against spreading untruths it diminishes its ability to speak the Truth. At my church, I've dealt with some situations involving urban legends making their way into our pulpit.

    That said, when the best case scenario still gives you a 1 in 10 chance of contracting a horrible disease when using the "safe sex" method promoted by the public health folks, it seems like abstinence should be an important part of the disease control message.
  5. Santiago macrumors regular

    Jun 14, 2002
    Mountain View, California
    Reducing the chance of infection by 90% only gives a 1 in 10 chance of being infected if the initial chance of being infected from having unprotected sex with an infected individual is 100%, which it isn't.
  6. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

    Daveman Deluxe

    Jun 17, 2003
    Corvallis, Oregon

    Agreed. The best method of disease control/pregnancy control is the "comprehensive" method of sex education: teach about contraceptives but also endorse abstinence as the only 100% effective solution.
  7. MrMacMan macrumors 604


    Jul 4, 2001
    1 Block away from NYC.
    When properly used it is over 90% effective.

    Now understand, when people are not taught how to use them, or use them improperly, its effectiveness goes down.

    My school teaches abstinence is (duh) 100% will not give you STD.

    But they know that doesn't work well.

    Why doesn't it work, because of hormones. Sorry guys, even more then when you were kids because of Milk and Cola.

    atleast kids no how to use it.

    As for the Vatican this is the first of many steps showing the Vatican is moving from:
    <----|----> ___(Politically)

    Its a shift.

    Besides this is a load.

    I mean really,
    What is that?

    Who the heck says something with NO basis what so ever.

    Condom Company: We just made there even less chance for STD's to infect you.
    Evil Guy: Hey, Lets Lace the condoms with STD's!
    Condom Company: ...Besides your a wacko why would we kill our consumers?
    Evil Guy: Uhhh, because, ummm

    :runs away:
  8. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    May 19, 2002
    Somebody want to e-mail that new show Mythbusters?

    As they said, the myth can be more powerful that the truth and scientific evidence. (ie, Poprocks and cell phones at gas stations)

    The church telling third-world people that condoms don't offer any protection against HIV, is utterly stoopid.

    And will take uncounted years and dollars to correct, if ever -- since the myth the church started will always be around.

  9. wdlove macrumors P6


    Oct 20, 2002
    This really puts the Vatican between a rock and a hard place. They have centuries of doctrine to protect, being against birth control of any kind. If the rhythm method is practied by catholics, then they would be safe from AIDS. The problem is that only a minority practice the age old safe sex method.
  10. vniow macrumors G4

    Jul 18, 2002
    I accidentally my whole location.
    #10 they wouldn't.
  11. Macco macrumors regular

    Jun 15, 2003
    Dude, really, talk about misinformation. The rhythm method isn't even 100% effective as a method of birth control , because it is possible for a woman to get pregnant while she is still off-peak. STD's, including AIDS, can be passed through any mucus membrane, including the mouth, the nose, male and female nether regions, and elsewhere. Fertilization of an egg is not necessary for contracting AIDS.
  12. Makosuke macrumors 603

    Aug 15, 2001
    The Cool Part of CA, USA
    Speaking as a Catholic who isn't a wacko, stuff like this really upsets me. Generally the Vatican has been highly conservative, but when faced with scientific fact in recent years, they've at least tried to work within that framework.

    That's why I've at least personally never heard of Catholics preaching Creationism, and they had to reconsider official doctrine on gays recently (going toward an "it's biological, so you can't help it, but you still shouldn't do anything about your urges" line).

    This, though, is a steaming pile, and really unfortunate. I'm all for teaching abstinance as a guaranteed method of protection, but lying about the next best choice is flat-out stupid (not to mention highly unchristian).

    And incidentally (sort of random side-note), the rythm method, if practiced in full-on religious style, is a highly effective HIV preventative--since you'll only ever practice the rythm method with your husband or wife, and you'll only ever be married to one person, there's only one person who will ever have any chance of giving you HIV. If they're clean, you're clean for life. If they're not, at least nobody else but you will get it from them.
  13. wdlove macrumors P6


    Oct 20, 2002
    I'm not a Catholic, but my understanding is that it amounts to no sex. No sex equals no AIDS. According to the last research that I read AIDS has not been transmitted via the mouth or nose. At least no case has been documented to this point in time that I'm aware. If it does occur there would need to be an open sore. For AIDS to be transmitted there needs to be a blood to blood transfer. There are cases of blood sticks in hospitals while drawing blood or starting an IV. The health care worker is tested then and again in 6 months, even with this the risk is small.
  14. Stelliform macrumors 68000


    Oct 21, 2002
    I am Catholic, and it is my understanding that the rhythm method isn't taught anymore. I don't know what they call the new one, but it is all based on the woman's temperature and mucus production. We never checked out that method though. My wife's Protestant, so she takes the pill... (The american way, loopholes...:D) (However the pill isn't 100% birth control either. If you don't believe me, let me introduce you to my son Thomas. ;) :D)
  15. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

    Daveman Deluxe

    Jun 17, 2003
    Corvallis, Oregon
    The most effective birth control method (aside from abstinence) is the intra-uterine device. 1% of women who have one installed get pregnant within one year of installation.

    For the record, that's what birth control statistics mean. A birth control method that is "90% effective" means that out of one hundred women who use the method, ninety will not get pregnant within the first year of use.

    Condoms are approximately 78% effective overall, but when used properly they are (IIRC) 92% effective. Add a spermicide and the numbers go up, but not dramatically.
  16. Macco macrumors regular

    Jun 15, 2003
    I'm pretty sure that the rhythm method involves having sex only when a woman is off her peak in her menstrual cycle. However, as I stated before, it is still possible for a woman to get pregnant off-peak.

    You probably know more about the Catholic Church than I do, myself being a Jew and all, so if you are right this would mean that the Vatican currently advocates nothing but good old abstinence. It worked when people got married at age 16, but it doesn't really work in today's world

    (BTW- better not let your son read this thread. Growing up thinking that you were born as a mistake can be very damaging to one's self-esteem!)
  17. Stelliform macrumors 68000


    Oct 21, 2002
    I abstained until we got married at 21... It can be done. (Only 6 years ago... don't think that this happened decades ago ;)...) Also in college for kicks in the honors lounge on campus we took a quick poll to see who was a virgin. Surprisingly only 1 out of the 15 we asked were not virgins.... Granted these were honor students all with above average IQ's so you really cannot consider it a valid population sampling. But we all perceived that everybody else was having sex... And we were wrong....

    Lastly on Thomas... , we were actually discussing the possibility of having another kid, the decision was kind of made for us. :D And he is only two... But you are making a very valid point here... As we age, do you think our kids will google and read all the things that we posted?!?! I couldn't imagine what I would do with all of the public musings and conversations that my father had in his late 20's! Wow... that is something to think about! :eek:
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