Vatican: Non-Catholics 'wounded' by not recognizing pope

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dswoodley, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. dswoodley macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    Evidently, the Roman Catholic leadership continues to not grasp some of the finer points of why the Reformation happened. Not that I expect a different point of view from the Catholic Church, but why even bring this up and make an issue of it, nearly 500 years after millions of Catholics told the Pope to stuff it.

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/10/pope.churches.reut/index.html

    "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ.

    The Vatican said other churches are "wounded" since they do not recognize the primacy of the pope.

    A 16-page document, prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict used to head, described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but suffering from a "wound" since they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope.

    But the document said the "wound is still more profound" in the Protestant denominations -- a view likely to further complicate relations with Protestants.

    "Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress ... it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them," it said.

    The Vatican text, which restates the controversial document "Dominus Iesus" issued by the then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger in 2000, said the Church wanted to stress this point because some Catholic theologians continued to misunderstand it.

    Ratzinger was elected Pope in April 2005. The document is his second strong reaffirmation of Catholic tradition in four days, following a decree on Saturday restoring the old Latin Mass alongside the modern liturgy.

    The document stressed that dialogue with other Christians remained "one of the priorities of the Catholic Church."

    The document, issued by Benedict's successor in doctrinal matters, Cardinal William Levada, complemented the Latin Mass decree in aiming to correct what it called "erroneous or ambiguous" interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, which took place from 1962 to 1965.

    Church modernizers interpreted the Council as a break from the past while conservatives, like Benedict, see it in continuity with 2,000 years of Catholic tradition.

    The document said the Council's opening to other faiths recognized there were "many elements of sanctification and truth" in other Christian denominations, but stressed only Catholicism had all the elements to be Christ's Church fully.

    The text refers to "ecclesial communities originating from the Reformation," a term used to refer to Protestants and Anglicans. Father Augustine Di Noia, under-secretary for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, said the document did not alter the commitment for ecumenical dialogue, but aimed to assert Catholic identity in those talks.

    "The Church is not backtracking on ecumenical commitment," Di Noia told Vatican radio.

    "But, as you know, it is fundamental to any kind of dialogue that the participants are clear about their own identity. That is, dialogue cannot be an occasion to accommodate or soften what you actually understand yourself to be." "
     
  2. FFTT macrumors 68030

    FFTT

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    #2
    What a bunch of self delusional lies.

    All they want is to keep the collection plate filled.
     
  3. Lau Guest

    #3
    I'm a non-catholic and I recognise the pope. He's the dude in the hat. :)
     
  4. iSaint macrumors 603

    iSaint

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    #4
    As I understand, Jesus loves the wounded. ;)
     
  5. srf4real macrumors 68030

    srf4real

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    #5
    Lol! I never could get into all of that middle-man pope, Mary, saint this and that, stuff. It's like street level drugs... stepped on so many times that there's hardly any product left in it for the little guy. It is much better to know the source!;)
     
  6. joekix macrumors 6502

    joekix

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    #6
    as the late richard jeni said, "fighting over religion, is like fighting over who has the better imaginary friend." :D
     
  7. joepunk macrumors 68030

    joepunk

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    #7
    *hears a shot in the dark*

    Oh they got me...

    *clutches hands over heart*

    ...in...in the leg
     
  8. kretzy macrumors 604

    kretzy

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    #8
    Well I'm Ukrainian Catholic (apparently) and I don't really have any time for the notion of Papacy. I especially don't like this new one. The previous one seemed like a nice guy at least and it was evident he did a lot of good.

    The idea that someone who has committed their life to a faith which preaches giving everything to the poor and living a humble existence and yet they live so opulently just seems wrong.

    Anways, more to the point...many of the Eastern rite Catholic Churches were really Orthodox but due historical event many affiliated themselves with the Roman Catholic Church for mostly political reasons. Because of this I don't think the Pope's ever had that much of a following in that part of the world. That being said I don't think anyone's been "wounded" by not recognising him.
     
  9. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #9
    I don't think the statement is too far off. Taking the divinity of Christ as a base, you have have a conundrum for most Protestants. Either the RC church was the church of Christ or it wasn't.

    If it was - then the Reformation was a split from the truth and the churches that grew out of it can contain only partial truth as none of them have all the truth of the RC.

    If it wasn't - then the Reformation was a split from a false church that had none of the authority of Christ. And if you derive your authority and divine nature from something which isn't divine...well 50% of 0 is still 0.

    So, under the expected presumption by the RC authorities that the RC church is true, it's understandable that the Protestant churches would be wounded. I'm surprised they felt that they needed to bother putting it in writing...
     
  10. srf4real macrumors 68030

    srf4real

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    #10
    Religion is for people who are scared of going to hell... true faith in Christ is for those who've already been there.:cool:
     
  11. xsedrinam macrumors 601

    xsedrinam

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    #11
    Further pontification does little to prevent sinking into the quicksand of irrelevance. The Roman Catholic Church is trying to avoid the inevitable and, in releasing such statements, only contributes to the disconnect. Kiss the ring of the Pope, or face being deemed as wounded? By whom and for whom? Let he who is without stones cast the first sin.
     
  12. aquajet macrumors 68020

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    #12
    Seems to me, this is bordering on idolatry, if not outrightly so. And we all know how God feels about that...
     
  13. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

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    #13
    I was going to blow-thru your post (after reading it) but decided to post under it.

    I was raised in the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic school, and was even an alterboy. It has been so long ago, Mass was in Latin. I liked the antiquity of the Church. I liked knowing it was the original Christian church, and that gave it special status (to me back then). I used to love the high mass being sang in Latin. It really was a beautiful experience for a young person.

    As I reached puberty, things changed. First of all, I was kicked out of Catholic school (something about dogshit in a girls purse). Then the mass went to english. All of a sudden, it lost all of it luster.

    I can understand why others may still feel the attraction. I can also imagine the church leadership wanting to re-capture the attraction of what the church once had. Maybe it still has it, but not as much in America? I do not know.
     
  14. xsedrinam macrumors 601

    xsedrinam

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    #14
    With that, you've already placed yourself in a small minority of MR of posters. :)

    Status and its exclusive, self propagating religious system seemed to be the very thing which vexed the Jesus of the N.T. record, if I recall correctly.


    Was the lackluster the result that you now understood what was being said, and didn't buy into it? Or was it that you had simply bought in to the packaging and never examined the contents? I'm not being smug or attempting to be patronizingly cute here.

    This has to be to some degree the rationale behind RC's decline and their desperation to reinforce positions with regard to:

    •authority
    •redefining the priesthood
    •condoms and birth control
    •homosexuality
    •the role of women in the Church


    Thus my use of the term "irrelevant". Any post modern organization, religious or not, whose memories are greater than their dreams is a generation away from extinction.
     
  15. Queso macrumors G4

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    #15
    I've always wondered about how the idolatry of the Catholic Church gets past their doctrine filter. Not only do their churches all have statues of Christ, statues of the Virgin Mary and even sometimes statues of various saints, but you'll even see people kneeling before them offering prayers. This to me makes the Church polytheistic in nature, which surely goes completely against the first commandment. Or does the Trinity, in itself just a clever way of getting around the polytheism charge, now extend into Mary, St. Peter, Mother Teresa etc.?

    However, considering this is religion we're talking about, my expecting any form of reason or logic out of it is probably asking too much. All I know for certain is the time I visited the Vatican, the massive concentration of wealth on display quite sickened me, even surpassing the feelings of revulsion British Cathedrals inspire.
     
  16. FFTT macrumors 68030

    FFTT

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    #16
    In a time where religious extremism is causing so much misery, this
    official statement from the Catholic church just adds fuel to the fire.

    The Roman Catholic Church was never the TRUE church of Jesus Christ.
     
  17. arkitect macrumors 603

    arkitect

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    #17
    Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, or as it used to be known: Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition

    Inquisition… see also under: Heresy, Torture, Torquemada, Burning at the stake, Trial of Galileo…

    Oh yes, "new" pope Benedict ex head of the Inquisition. No wonder the "true" church is taking a few steps back toward the Middle Ages
     
  18. dswoodley thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #18
    Agreed, I don't think it's man's place to make or offer that judgment. It sounds pretty desperate to me. I am married to catholic and go to catholic mass every week (I'm a methodist). Can't wait to hear this weekend how I am less of a christian.
     
  19. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #19
    Meh, it's not that bad. I'm used to hearing that from the Methodists.;)
     
  20. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #20
    :rolleyes:
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    In a spot of linguistic irony, the French for "wounded" is "blessé".
     
  22. dswoodley thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    Count me blessé then!
     
  23. adrianblaine macrumors 65816

    adrianblaine

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    #23
    That's the crazy part. It may not be man's place to make that judgment, but it is the Pope's apparently.

    Makes no sense to me. Personally I don't ever remember reading Christ saying he left a human in charge while He is gone...

    I definitely am not of the opinion that Catholics are not based on at least part truth, but I also think no Christian based religion has everything right.
     
  24. dswoodley thread starter macrumors 6502a

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    #24
    For centuries Catholics pointed to the Saint Peter/Rock thing to defend the Pope's authority, but even they back off of it to some degree nowadays.
     
  25. adrianblaine macrumors 65816

    adrianblaine

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    #25
    Yeah, I know the text.

    But it seems a long shot to use this one sentence to justify the authority of the Pope. Also, from what I've learned, Peter comes from the Greek word for rock (petra), but that the word Christ used to describe the "rock" He will build His church on is closer to the word for pebble.
     

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