Vegetarian Diets (from "Steve Jobs was a fruitarian, now a vegan")

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Limesub, Jan 17, 2011.

  1. Limesub, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2011

    Limesub macrumors newbie

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    #1
    I gave up meat over 10 years ago and have never had any health issues at all. The FDA recommends getting 50 grams of protein a day. 1 oz. of peanuts contains about 6.7 grams of protein, approximately 13% of the daily recommended amount. But nobody eats just 1 oz. of nuts at a time... I eat probably 4 or 5 ounces at a time because they taste so good and are convenient (65% of my daily protein in a ~10 minute snack). The claim that vegetarians don't get enough protein is groundless. :apple:

    MOD NOTE: The following posts were moved from: Steve Jobs was a fruitarian, now a vegan.
     
  2. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #2
    I'm glad there are vegetarians in the world....more meat for me :D
     
  3. roadbloc macrumors G3

    roadbloc

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    #3
    I eat whatever I feel like. It's exercise that keeps me in shape.
     
  4. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

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    #4
    NOT ALL PROTEIN IS THE SAME...there is better and worse protein

    Anything soy = BAAAAAAAAAAAAD (for most people, including people who don't eat meat. I would argue that the human digestive system is NOT made to digest and use soy with beneficial health effects).

    Whey protein isolates = the way (no pun intended) to go.

    Protein is a critical nutrient and it is intertwined with numerous cell functions. Whey isolates is the only common protein source known to have a higher biological value/bioavailability than human breast milk. Chicken eggs have almost a high of BV as breast milk, but are still far inferior to whey isolates for numerous reasons. Cow milk is a good bit lower than eggs and if you have certain digestive issues when it comes to dairy, you may only absorb a small amount of the theoretically max protein value. Casein and soy (except whole soy bean base) have a much, much, much lower BV than whey and beyond that, are not nearly as easily absorbed because whey isolates are essentially 'pre-digested'. Beef has a BV which is about the same as soy and casein and it is not an ideal source of protein; the super fatty beef eaten in the US has an even lower BV and, beyond being bad for your health, is a pretty poor protein source. Soy protein isolate has a BV far below all of the above and some people feel that it has numerous negative health effects.

    If you want to put weight on and want to do it in a HEALTHY manner, don't go out stuffing your face with hamburgers. Actually, don't stuff your face with much cow meat at all. Avoid soy, casein, and hemp. You need to push high quality proteins = amino acid absorption. This allows the development of LEAN muscle. Eat eggs (if you can), turkey breast, most fish (Omega 3's are critical), whole wheat/grains supplying high density (good) carbs, DARK chocolate with a high cocoa level and minimal added sugars, plenty of dark green vegetables (instead of starchy), plenty of fruits, minimal low density carbs, minimal processed food, etc.

    And if you want to gain weight in a healthy manner, you need to exercise. Weight lifting will give the fastest and ideal gains and allows you to shape your body development by how you lift. Immediately after lifting, you need a fast digesting protein. Whey isolates are probably the best given how quickly the human body can process them. Whey isolates will also reduce the lactic 'muscle burn' and it speeds the lean muscle development. Combine whey with certain fruits such as pineapple/papaya, and you are getting more effect as these fruits have great effects on the digestion system (oddly enough given how many people find them to be overly acidy and so they are labeled as 'bad'). Dark chocolate is pretty good too for a quickly digested protein source and you will see many athletes consume chocolate-whey shakes/drinks immediately after their last exercise.

    I am not going to go to far into this as I have said too much already, but the human body is designed to consume both meat and plant matter. With that said, the amount of meat we are supposed to consume is very small compared to the amount of plant matter and that small amount of meat needs to be lean. People often say vegetarians/vegans live as long as normal eaters and this is a comparison which cannot be made. Most people consume very harmful types of meat and processed foods and this can make these people live far shorter lives than people who do not eat meat based products.

    If you want to live a better life, you will almost surely get a benefit from avoiding certain foods which have no beneficial value, avoiding chemicals, eating organic/natural food, eating many dark leafy green vegetables, eating small portions of lean meat and/or using whey isolates as a protein source, cutting down bad carbs and bad fats, bumping up omega 3 intake, bumping up fiber intake, changing eating habits, working out, etc. You may want to eliminate red meat and pork completely. I rarely eat either of them but I eat turkey breast and fish almost every day.
     
  5. Mord macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #5
    As all incredibly awesome people are :p


    Though I say that in jest, it's been my diet since birth and has served me well.
     
  6. Limesub thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #6
    Hmm.. Are you sure about that? :rolleyes:

    Please read:

    Whey Protein

    "Another serious toxic byproduct is whey protein, a byproduct of the dairy industry. Whey is milk protein that is discarded from the production of cow milk, a serious toxin to the human body. You can commonly find whey protein in your commercial brand health food stores and local gyms and fitness centers. The dairy industry targets athletes for their whey protein byproduct; perhaps figuring athletes generally are not the brightest individuals. Regardless, whey protein has no business in the human body. It is a waste byproduct and toxin to the human body. Beware of all those protein bars and beverages containing whey. The dairy industry, like all other byproduct waste industries, are using people as trash dumpsters and canisters to rid itself of waste that would otherwise cost it millions of dollars to dispose of."

    source: http://eatingcleanworks.com/waste-products-passed-off-as-health-products.html

    Whey protein isolate is essentially the garbage skimmed off the top of milk, and is not a natural source of protein for Human beings and would never be found in a Human's natural diet at all.

    I agree with much of what you said about eating all of the fresh fruits and dark leafy greens, and possibly even the anti-soy comments, but your claim that whey protein isolate is "the way to go," has some issues. ;)
     
  7. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

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    #7
    Your sources aren't reputable, whey is not a byproduct as it is expensive to produce, it is natural for people because its BV is higher than breast milk, and isolates are among the best absorbed foods people can eat. Why isolates are at least 90% pure protein and are almost completely free of lactose, sugar, and fat. People who are lactose intolerant CAN consume whey isolates without any GI problems. The whey, which is purified AND filtered, is NOT a byproduct. Show me reputable evidence that proves such nonsense that you claim. Whey, unlike soy, is safe and beneficial for virtually almost anyone in need of protein, which is a vital element human beings need to survive. Obviously, whey, like ANYTHING, is toxic when consumed in excess (even water actually).

    The people who spout this kind of gibberish off are mainly the psychotic vegans who think the world should not eat any animal products or people with a grudge against the dairy industry; they use little to no scientific evidence to back their argument.
     
  8. Limesub, Jan 18, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011

    Limesub thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #8
    "Whey is a natural by-product of the cheese-making process. Milk contains two primary proteins: casein and whey. Whey composes about 20% of milk proteins, and casein comprises the remaining 80%. So when you drink a glass of milk, you are consuming both casein proteins and whey proteins.

    During the cheese-making process, an enzyme called rennet is added to milk to curdle it. The curds are used to make cheese, and the remaining liquid is whey.

    Historically, this liquid was considered more-or-less useless. Indeed, the dairy industry had so much excess whey that they struggled with disposing of the surplus. Some of it found its way into swine or cattle feed, where it appeared to produce larger, meatier cows or pigs, but a great deal of it also ended up in the landfill."

    source: http://www.answerfitness.com/tag/whey/

    ^ This is just the first source that came up when I googled.. you're welcome to research it for yourself if you don't find my sources credible. This source is pro-dairy by the way, not some psychotic vegan site.

    Bottom line: it is unnatural and unnecessary for proper nutrition; I would never recommend whey protein in place of much healthier and more natural sources like legumes, nuts, seeds, and whole grains.
     
  9. SchneiderMan macrumors G3

    SchneiderMan

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    #9
    At the end of the day you gotta eat some real meat.
     
  10. tkermit macrumors 68030

    tkermit

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    #10
    Why's that?
     
  11. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #11
    Because real meat is delicious.
     
  12. OutThere macrumors 603

    OutThere

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    #12
    The amount of mis and dis information about eating right is astounding. I think it boils down to: eat a good variety of fresh foods in moderation, with a balance of protein, fat and carbohydrates. Lean meat can be a healthy source of protein, if you wish to eat it. Eating healthily is possible whether or not you eat meat, and awareness of what you're eating is important whatever your diet choice. Case closed.
     
  13. Mactrillionaire, Jan 18, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011

    Mactrillionaire macrumors regular

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    #13
    Fruitarian doesn't sound like a healthy path to follow; more likely, it is a path that includes much nutritional deficiency and eventual type II Diabetes. In addition, the Wikipedia article claims that Jobs is a Pescetarian (which is more in line with what I would expect). As far as diets go, besides the vitamins and minerals the body needs, mainly we need lean protein (fish qualifies but has many toxins), whole grains, various herbals and exceedingly limited amounts of generally unhealthy stuff like fats and sugars. Most people don't seem to realize that sugars are the same as simple carbohydrates in the way that our bodies process them. We only need enough simple carbohydrates to maintain a healthy blood sugar. However, we need lots of whole grains despite what the fattening protein fad dieters might otherwise claim. What we don't need is really fattening protein (i.e., like red meat steaks). In fact, we should only have that maybe once or twice per month. Lean protein like egg whites, low toxicity fish, skim milk products and meats similar to chicken are fine to have quite often as are whole grains like steel cut oatmeal, not white Wonder bread or ANY kind of potato but sweet potatoes.

    I think what most people fail to realize is that moderation is key to a healthy diet, even among those foods which you need and are good for you. As for simple carbohydrates and everything else, even too much lean protein or whole grains will be converted into fat if you consume more of it in calories than what your body uses of it. The two huge keys to dietary success are knowledge and self-control.
     
  14. Music_Producer macrumors 68000

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    #14
    Some of the responses here are incredibly stupid - someone searched on Google and posted the first link they found about whey protein? People will say milk is good, and those that will say it's evil - just listen to your body and for God's sake look at medical journals and labs that do a lot of research instead of what someone 'thinks' is good or bad.

    I grew up in India - where almost everyone is vegan. They have the highest incidence of cardiac disease now - a typical Indian will be skinny fat (ie. hardly any lean muscle - but loads of belly fat) They also have high insulin resistance. The Indian diet comprises mainly of vegetables, fruits and fats (oils)

    However, sugar is a big culprit - Indians have always consumed sugar in excessive amounts - so no matter how many veggies/fruits you consume - if you eat a lot of junk (processed carbs) your body will take a beating.

    Protein is quite essential - sure, vegans get their protein from vegetarian sources but I'd prefer eggs and/or poultry. Fish is an excellent source. Just eat everything in moderation and balance. If I could only show you pictures of malnourished indian kids (with no protein consumption) - huge distended bellies, blonde hair (abnormal for dark skinned people btw) and weak as hell.

    Jobs really needs to incorporate a sensible diet.
     
  15. tkermit, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011

    tkermit macrumors 68030

    tkermit

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    #15
    I think you're exaggerating a bit.


    :confused: It's not like he ate a ton of meat or other animal products when he looked like this :

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Winni macrumors 68030

    Winni

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    #16
    And both are awfully unhealthy for the human body. There are several amino acids that our system REQUIRES that are only available in animal products. That does not mean that you have to eat meat, but if you do not want to eat pills, at least milk products have to be in your shopping list. But in a strict vegan diet, you will have to throw in pills if you do not want to suffer from malnutrition.

    To make it simple: There is a difference between ethics and ethical insanity, and there are certain facts of nature that cannot be disputed. Human beings are omnivores by design.
     
  17. tkermit macrumors 68030

    tkermit

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    #17
    I'm sorry, but that's simply wrong. You can get all essential amino acids from plant food.
     
  18. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #18
    But can you get the deliciousness of a juicy piece of rare prime rib from plant food? :p
     
  19. tkermit macrumors 68030

    tkermit

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    #19
    That's another question. :p Depends on the cook, I guess. :)
     
  20. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

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    #20
    Let me say this now before anything else; excessive protein consumption is harmful and unpleasant to experience. I am not, and will not, advocate for the level of protein intake that is the 'recommended serving' from some brands. Slamming 100+ grams of protein in a single shake, which some (not a whole lot) whey brands recommend (for hardcore athletes). That level of protein intake is thought to be potentially harmful and has NOT been studied into the detail that the whey isolates I recommend and have substantial evidence of their benefit and safety profile. Also, all of the studies that have shown whey isolates to be one of the best ways to avoid short-term muscle atrophy due to temporary inability to move around have used substantially less than what many makers of whey recommend. Also, most studies have used isolates due to not only their ease of digestion, but also due to almost complete lack of fat, cholesterol, dairy, and sugars. Isolates are currently being studied for potential benefit of weight and muscle management for HIV/AIDS patients, although I can't say anything regarding effectiveness and even if the whey has any impact at all in that case. Some 'cheap' whey products have tons of fat, cholesterol, sugar, and dairy in them, which IMO cancels out any potential benefit to contribute to positive health outcomes. As protein percentage decreases in whey, the fat, dairy, and sugar content usually increase. Keep in mind that whey-isolates are 90%+ pure protein, where as some other whey products are as little as 20%. I do not include any of that type of whey in my argument for significant benefit as empirical evidence for it does not exist, largely due to lack of studies. Anyone using whey isolates needs to understand that since it is 90%+ protein and has such a high BV, the amount of protein actually absorbed by the human body will be far higher in whey isolates than most other foods and so 60 grams of protein in whey isolates will have a better absorption than 60 grams of protein in ground bottom round. Because the actual protein in whey isolates is absorbed substantially better than other protein sources, the physical grams of protein intake of whey isolates should be reduced as less intake is needed for the same outcome.

    Whey has been demonstrated in numerous blinded studies to be one of the best, if not, the best, protein SUPPLEMENTS. When used as a quickly absorbed protein source after physical activity, benefits have been widely documented. NOW, on top of using whey which is lower quality than whey isolates, some whey products also use both useless and potentially harmful products, including: creatine monohydrate (and hydrochloride, both which have minimal benefit and at least some documented risk), chemicals to extend shelf life, flavoring/coloring chemicals (the US still uses chemicals that the rest of the western would deemed toxic years ago), nitric acid (which isn't understood very well as a supplement), and even testosterone boosters (range of products w/ various levels of effectiveness and safety). Obviously, you should not consume an excess of anything and whey (or any protein) or not, if you aren't consuming a good bit of vegetable manner, you aren't maximizing your health. I would also argue that omega 3s are critical as well, and even supplements have health effects on at least 10 health concerns (and so it is exempt from following).

    I will agree with you on the second part that if possible, you want to get as much energy through food that is processed the least. With that said, most people do not 'ultimately' get sufficient protein, at least Americans anyway. This is not due to intake however but due to the types of meats Americans eat, which are so high in fat that they simply 'linger' in your gut and may not have as good of absorption as leaner meats and obviously vegetables. Their fat content is generally high and BV is generally a good bit lower than other protein sources.

    Taking a multivitamin may not give many users any significant benefit due to you 'peeing' most of it out. I can almost guarantee you will pee it out if you take a multivitamin on an empty stomach. Many people I work with do need supplementation of certain elements (deficiency), but pre v. post bloodwork has shown that an alarming amount of people get only a very small amount of benefit with certain elements, even if they are consuming the 'entire' recommended dose. I have always advised that changing diet will almost surely have greater positive effect than simply taking processed supplements.

    I would be careful with nuts and I do not recommend nuts as an ideal protein source due to: 1) allergies, 2) the choking hazard, 3) sodium (which for some reason most people buy), and 4) many people tend to eat nuts in excess, which can have numerous negative consequences. For people capable of tracking their food intake without nut allergies, yes, it can have some benefits and many nuts have 'good' fats in them, but the population I work with often has some to significant memory loss, limited physical capability, limited ability to chew and/or swallow, and so it is not a viable source for everyone.

    If you want a protein source that is not based on any living animal (such as whey), I would (and a LOT of the literature) argue that broccoli is the way to go. I would even go as to say if you had to pick one vegetable that is the 'best' benefit wise, that broc would be it. Obviously, you should still eat variety as no single food can support a healthy human being. For older persons, it is even better due to GI benefit, and also moderately good anti-inflammatory effects. Even whole grains can cause substantial inflammation.

    If I was misleading I apologize and will conclude with, if current protein intake is both within the recommended allowances and is coming from ideal (health-wise) sources (broc, other veg, whole grains, turkey breast, skim milk, etc), a need to use any type of protein supplementation (including whey isolates) is unnecessary and could have potentially results over time. There is almost never reason to stop eating healthy protein sources and replace them with active supplementation.
     
  21. Mactrillionaire macrumors regular

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    #21
    Well, first of all you have to ask why there would be 100g of protein in a single shake. Most people don't even need more than 60g of protein PER DAY. A single meal should contain between 15g to 30g of protein. A snack (as a shake is), even for body builders, shouldn't generally contain more than 20g of protein, although many do. At that level of protein, the body is going to treat it as if you ate an entire meal, but most people are only going to count it as a snack.
     
  22. Moyank24 macrumors 601

    Moyank24

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    #22
    I don't think I would be able to last one week without red meat. And I hope I never have to.

    A 10 oz Filet, cooked (or not cooked ;)) black and blue, at Bobby Van's in New York, is a religious experience.
     
  23. Limesub, Jan 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011

    Limesub thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #23
    Nothing you just wrote has any truth to it.

    I can tell you, as living proof, that a vegan diet is great for Humans to live on. I removed all meat and dairy from my diet more than 10 years ago, and stopped eating red meat over 15 years ago (when I was still in middle school). I don't rely on any supplements, don't take any sort of medication (never have), and feel just fine. I'm a medium build (5' 10"), not skinny/not fat, and have maintained a weight in the range of 170 - 180 lbs. for the last 10 years without stepping foot in a gym. My blood pressure is perfect, and I have absolutely zero appetite for meat or dairy anymore; I don't miss it. There is nothing you can get from animal flesh that you cannot get from a superior plant source, except coronary disease, diabetes, gout, cancer... and the list goes on and on.

    To say that meat is an essential part of the Human diet is completely false. You're much better off without it - especially in the long run.
     
  24. roadbloc macrumors G3

    roadbloc

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    #24
    [Citation Needed]
     
  25. Limesub thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #25
    You're comparing impoverished people suffering from malnutrition with vegans? There is no logical comparison there. If you really grew up in India you would know that most Indians are not vegan. most are not even vegetarian.

    There are different types of sugars, all of which have different effects on your body. Fruits, for example, are low glycemic sources of sugar; eat as much as you want; they won't hurt you. The more the better, in fact.. fruit is basically high octane fuel for your body.

    High glycemic foods, on the other hand; (donuts, cake, biscuits - anything made with white flour) increase your body fat (especially around the waist), spike your blood sugar levels, and over time can result in the development of type II diabetes.
     

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