Victory for Religious Freedom in Wisconsin

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mrkramer, Apr 1, 2015.

  1. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #1
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...l-votes-to-ban-discrimination-against-atheism

    Good to see this, hopefully all religions will continue to be protected.
     
  2. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #2
    Religious Freedom Restoration Laws at the State level have been attempts to pull the wool over everyone's eyes. The real agenda, religious based discrimination has been exposed and I think this intent will be neutralized.
     
  3. Cory Bauer macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    #3
    Nice to see a proper use of the phrase, "religious freedom".
     
  4. caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #4
  5. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #5
    Which opens potential hazards. The christains have been trying for-freaking-ever to get secular humanism classified as a religion so that they can point and say, "there! see! religion in the schools! now how can you justify keeping jesus out!" So, ultimately, this is not necessarily a good move.
     
  6. DonJudgeMe macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2014
    Location:
    Arizona
    #6
    Well, you could always point out that Christianity is responsible for a whole new genre of porn: Catholic Schoolgirl :D

    Jesus is a very bad boy.
     
  7. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #7
    I can see another no-religion is a religion thread approaching.

    [​IMG]I am looking forward to it.


    What is your definition of "religion"?
     
  8. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    #8

    .
     
  9. Cory Bauer macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    #9
    Yikes.
     
  10. caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #10
    Fairy tales and myths that gullible people and people subject to childhood brainwashing, societal pressure and family pressure pretend is something real and meaningful because they are afraid to do otherwise. Not knowing how to break the chain of tradition and also getting it all mixed up with their culture, such that it becomes difficult to separate the two, compelling the ongoing underpinning of fairy tales and myths to continue despite the age of reason and science intervening since the birth of the monotheistic religions that predominant today. This combined with the lack of critical thought focused on the "religion" by the average person and what it really is, as well as people fulfilling an urge to belong to something, anything, that makes them feel part of a community among likeminded people.

    That's my definition.
     
  11. mrkramer thread starter macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #11
    I highly doubt that is the purpose of this decision. Then again I disagree with a lot of people on here about the reasons for other religious freedom laws as well.
     
  12. dec. Suspended

    dec.

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2012
    Location:
    Toronto
    #12
    I think the issue is that many people are being raised with a presence of "religion", therefore they simply don't have the open mind to understand that "religion" is absolutely not necessary.
     
  13. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    #13
    No, obviously. Still, by analogy, it is not the purpose of the automobile to create road rage, but road rage has become an inescapable effect. Sometimes things do not work out the way you want or expect.
     
  14. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #14
    What is "superhuman"?
    What is "God"?
    And what would be your definition of a "system of faith and worship"?

    ----------

    I shortened your block of text to the essential attempt to answer my question.

    So by your definition, the easter bunny constitutes a religion to people who believe it exists. And so do characters of the Brothers Grimm for small children who believe in them? That is an amazingly superficial understanding of religion.

    ----------

    I think we don't agree on what "religion" means.
    If you limit the term to just mean organized religion, then you are of course right.
     
  15. mudslag, Apr 2, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015

    mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    #15
    We can play semantics if you like but we both know what the general idea of a god is construed as.

    As for "superhuman" not only is that cherry picking one word out of that part of the definition, you're also aware that many see humans as designed by a creator in the creator's image. Meaning that the creator is human like with an almost unimaginable power to create and do anything. Now granted these are human concepts and are open to opinion by anyone. The reality is the idea of what god is, is subjective in itself. Superhuman could also mean a power far greater then we are capable of understanding or every grasping. The power to create everything natural we see. What one person views god is does not equate the same view for the next. You're smart enough to know that but you just want to play the semantics game.

    As for "system of faith and worship" that too is pretty much text book definition. While there is some room for subjectiveness, there is still a generally accepted view of what they are and what it means. While one can worship to a non deity, in the religious sense it usually tends to mainly be about god.


    Regarding the reason you asked what caesarp definition of a religion is, atheism still isn't a religion. You can argue that there are some with atheistic views that act out in similar ways that religious folks do. Such as those that come off preachy or those that partake in community groups similar to religious ones. But those acts alone don't qualify as a religion nor does that represent atheism in general. No matter what word games one tries to play regarding definitions atheism will never be a religion.


    As per the general definition of religion itself, atheism does not adhere to said definition.
     
  16. lostngone macrumors demi-god

    lostngone

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2003
    Location:
    Anchorage
    #16
    I view religion organized or not as a way to justify hating those that are different.

    See! It is right here in this 2000 year old book. I have to do it so I can suck up to my God! If I don't I will piss my God off or go to hell!
     
  17. samiwas macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    #17
    Yet, pretty much true. Children believe Santa exists and will be good to get presents. Some people believe God exists and will act a certain way to achieve their divine afterlife.

    Children believe the Easter Bunny comes and hides eggs all around everyone's property in one night. Some people believe that their God is omniscient and forms every fiber and being.

    The difference is that children soon learn about reality.
     
  18. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #18
    I think that is a poor analogy and debatable. Read this:

    (link)

    Belief in any particular deity does not appear to be a requirement and can include a statement along the lines of "supreme beings might exist, but we have yet to meet one" which would cover both Atheism and Agnosticism. Now you can say that if you don't believe in the Christian God you are not a Christian, but that does not preclude you from being spiritual or open to the acceptance of a deity if and when such evidence surfaces.
     
  19. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    #19

    Before we can debate that point lets point out what "atheism" is....



    With that, atheism holds no beliefs short of there is no god, that's it nothing more. It also has no cultural system. As for the notion of where humanity, life and the existence of everything came from is not an exclusive view to atheism nor is directly related to atheism. There are common views shared by many if not most atheist regarding say the begining of the universe but that's a view also shared by some believers as well. Again it's not an exclusive belief to atheism itself. It is unlike that of say creationism which is exclusive to some believers in a deity. The analogy may not be the best but it's fair.
     
  20. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #20
    Reality is in the eye (or better consciousness) of the beholder ;)
     
  21. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #21
    If you read the first paragraph of my link, there was no mention of deities. Atheism is simply a view of our place in the Universe. Using that broad definition, how does that differ from a specific religion? The perception of our place in, and our relationship to the Universe. As a rule Atheists have no ceremonies to honor the universe, but it still qualifies as a belief system that I have no problem labeling it as such, despite it lacking the dogma and ceremony of a typical religion. The desire to legitimize or illegitimize a particular point of view seems to be associated with the argument that Atheism is or is not a religion. :)
     
  22. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    #22


    Your post was based on a quote regarding atheism, which in turn directly relates to the subject of a deity. As for atheism itself, it is exactly what the definition I posted. Our "view of our place in the universe" is not directly related to or exclusive to atheism. There is ONE SINGLE ASPECT of atheism, god and the universe. That is that because atheist don't believe in god, god was not a factor in the creation of the universe. That's it, atheism itself has no specific view of our place in the universe. It differs from religion because at it's core is nothing like religion, it holds one POV and nothing else.




    Any perception of the universe is outside of atheism. I don't get why that's so hard to understand.



    This is where that analogy comes in. Not believing is not a belief, hence why the saying "Not playing golf is not a sport" or "Atheism isn't a religion. Any more than not collecting stamps is a hobby". Just like not believing in unicorns, leprechauns and underwear trolls is not a belief.
     
  23. caesarp, Apr 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #23
    No. Atheism has nothing to do with a "place in the Universe". As a matter of fact, we are the 3rd planet from the sun -- somewhere in the milky way. So place in the universe has nothing to do with atheism. Atheism simply says there ain't no god. Call that a religion if you want to, but it serves no purpose to do so, except perhaps to make religious people feel better about themselves. [See, I'm not the only one with crazy beliefs].

    By your "broad definition" I suppose science is a religion. Since astrophysicists try to determine our "place in the universe." The fact is, under commonly accepted understanding of what religion is, atheism is not. Otherwise, the definition of religion loses all meaning and anything and everything can be a religion, including the one I just made up -- called the religion of the door knob. I proposition that my door knob along with my stapler are controlling the earth and the universe. There, presto, we now have a new religion of which I am the only member (so far).

    Spare me the agonized renderings that taking the position that illogical and fantastical creatures don't exist, is some sort of religion.

    ----------

    Except that we are talking about adults here. I'm not aware of many adults that believe in the easter bunny. But logically, there is little difference between believing in zombies (Christ rising from the dead) or woman who don't have sex but giving birth, and any fantastical mythological creature made up in any fictional book.

    Religion is a farce and a crock. And that people still fall for it is a testament to the power of family and societal pressure, and indoctrination from child hood. Let's face reality here.
     
  24. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

    Joined:
    May 5, 2008
    Location:
    The Misty Mountains
    #24
    This again religion:
    Maybe I'm wrong as far as your concerned, but I feel that Atheism can fall within the definition above. The Atheist belief, world view, order of existence: "We are little specks in the vastness of the Universe. We are not ruled over by a deity. When we die, it's over." Are you an Atheist? :)
     
  25. caesarp, Apr 2, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015

    caesarp macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2012
    #25
    No. A realist. I don't think there are werewolves, elves or hobbits exist either. Call that my religion, I don't care. But you would be wrong.

    It doesn't require belief to NOT believe in something made up by people as stories for entertainment or to spread a view of the world. I just made up a coffee cup monster that rules the world. Do you BELIEVE it doesn't exist. No, you know it doesn't exist, cause I just made it up. The same thing can be said about Thor, Apollo and any other god that semi-illiterate non scientific people made up thousands of years ago.

    Why are monotheistic god(s) or any other god treated any differently than hobbits or Sauron the dark lord? Just because the Dark Lord was written about in some people's life time and we know exactly who the author is?

    Fiction is fiction. Man made up stuff is man made up stuff. Just because some man (or men) made up stuff that tries to explain the world to desert nomads and control how people should live, back when the strong ruled the weak and they didn't understand what the sun was -- should make no difference in our understanding of it. Stories are stories. It doesn't matter if I say -- oh by the way this story is true. And its true because I say so.

    If people want to believe in zombies and miracles and virgin births -- they can knock themselves out. Just don't use that to bother the rest of us.
     

Share This Page