Victory! republican finally do some good

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dinaluvsApple, Dec 11, 2008.

  1. dinaluvsApple macrumors regular

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    #1
    as a canadian im very pleased with this outcome.
    i was getting very tired of these unskilled union slobs earning as much as what nurses, police officers and firefighters make and being the leeches that brought down these 3 companies.
    i hope they dug a nice and cozy grave because they'll be sleeping in it for quite some time.


    http://www.cnbc.com/id/28183485

    WASHINGTON- A $14 billion emergency bailout for U.S. automakers collapsed in the Senate Thursday night after the United Auto Workers refused to accede to Republican demands for swift wage cuts.
     
  2. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #2
    Is this really what bought down the auto companies?
     
  3. Surely Guest

    Surely

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    Los Angeles, CA
    #3
    I hope you're right dude.

    The stock market is supposed to tumble tomorrow- the Nikkei is already down 7%.

    Besides, the White House is just going to give some of that TARP money to the auto industry instead.

    I agree that they don't deserve a handout, but a loan with conditions would save many jobs and an important North AMerican industry.
     
  4. drichards macrumors 6502a

    drichards

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    #4
    You don't feel that a skilled union worker who is responsible for assembling, checking, sourcing, and otherwise making sure your car or cars around you are put together in a safe manner should be paid a good wage? And do you have any idea how many Canadiens and Americans livelihoods are dependent on these three companies? This is bigger than a few dollars. Do some thinking before you shoot your mouth off.
     
  5. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #5
    Why should union members take a pay cut after they only just negotiated pay awards with the big three last year that matched salaries with plants overseas?

    And until recently, the big three were doing fine. So why blame the unions all of a sudden? Because that would play into Republican political hands wouldn't it and mess with base Democratic support.

    Don't drink the kool-aid.
     
  6. synth3tik macrumors 68040

    synth3tik

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    #6
    I sure hope you are referring to the labor union bosses and not the auto workers themselves.

    75% of the problem is bad management, and 25% is export/import laws backed by the labor union.

    The auto union does a lot of lobbying and has gotten a lot of import/export laws on the books. To the point that there are rather popular model Ford cars that we have never seen in the US.

    A friend who worked in labor laws explained it to me better then I can to others.
     
  7. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #7
    Bingo. I feel safer if someone who builds the trains, planes and autos I ride in are paid well.
     
  8. dinaluvsApple thread starter macrumors regular

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    #8
    first of all these companies arent gonna go bankrupt.
    they will enter chapter 11 and union will be dissolved, and wages will be reinstated to match competitors in the same state.
    why should somebody in kentucky make more building ford(example) than building a Honda?

    once the union is dissolved, i will fully support money being loaned to them to restructure and revamp their lines.

    plants overseas?
    u mean those in europe where they mostly(not all euro countries) have socialized healthcare and old age care dont the company isnt as burned as it in the states, where the avrg domestic car has $1400 attched to it in legacy cost to pay for workers who retired like 30 years ago.
     
  9. quagmire macrumors 603

    quagmire

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    #9
    From what I hear, unless the gov't supports them in Chap 11, GM will quickly tumble into Chap 7.

    Since everyone here loves to say Toyota and Honda make wonderful vehicles, their workers get paid less, but still pump out good products. So why is the UAW against cutting their wages to those levels( which are decent wages as well as Toyota and Honda are fighting to keep the UAW out of their factories).
     
  10. gotzero macrumors 68040

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    #10
    Let's see how smart they feel when they have to give something like $50-100B to AIG to pay for GMs CDS contracts.

    It did not make sense on the surface, but the bailout was a bargain. The republican party also just killed themselves in the eyes of the "working man". I wish they would have done this before the election...
     
  11. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #11
    This is all part of the same wingnut meme that minorities destroyed the economy, and that ACORN and FreddieandFannie dug the hole... now it's the unions. Because to admit otherwise would destroy conservatism, and they know it.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/01/stiglitz200901?currentPage=1
     
  12. dinaluvsApple thread starter macrumors regular

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    #12
    i live in ontario, so i know how important the auto industry is to people here.
    im very well aware of the trickle down effect through parts makers.

    but there is a difference between a good wage(grossly overpaid union slobs)
    and a market wage similar to what other companies making the same product(at a superior quality i might add) get paid.

    i can guarantee you once the union comes crawling back from their slime hole and acts reasonable the republicans will support the loans.

    yes it is.
    GM, Ford and Chyrsler, even though i hate their products, were forced into producing suvs and trucks and gas guzzlers, because of labour costs that made it unaffordable to build economy cars like the civic.
     
  13. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #13
    For instance?

    http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=1026e955-541c-4aa6-bcf2-56dfc3323682
     
  14. dinaluvsApple thread starter macrumors regular

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    #14


    http://www.npr.org/news/specials/gmvstoyota/


    Profitability per Vehicle
    Source: 2005 Harbour Report
    GM:
    Loses $2,331 per vehicle
    Toyota:
    Makes $1,488 per vehicle


    Average Hourly Salary for Non-Skilled, Assembly Line Worker
    Source: Center for Automotive Research
    GM:
    $31.35/hour
    NOTE: Includes idle workers still on payroll and those on protected status.
    Toyota:
    $27/hour
    NOTE: Includes year-end bonus.

    that protected status refers to the lowlifes in the job bank playing tetris while still making their wages.

    Health Care Costs per Vehicle in 2004
    Source: 2005 Harbour Report & A.T. Kearny Inc.
    GM:
    $1,525
    Toyota:
    $201

    once u factor in these additional costs, that how you end up with the $70 per hour.

    Average Labor Cost per U.S. Hourly Worker
    Source: GM & Toyota
    GM:
    $73.73
    Toyota:
    $48
     
  15. drichards macrumors 6502a

    drichards

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    #15
    Superior quality? JDpower might disagree.
    Continuing to call the workers grossly overpaid union slobs isn't going to reflect well on you. What do you do for a living, and why do you feel it your right to be detrimental to another man's quality of person? That union worker has a family to support, and is damn proud of what he does.
     
  16. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

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    #16
    One goes down they all do, if GM files bankruptcy and slow payment to their suppliers -- those suppliers will switch to COD or also file bankruptcy.

    Since the big three tend to share suppliers these days, it may cause a big ripple in the entire US auto industry.

    Simply changing the terms on the Ford suppliers can mean a major cash crisis for them and may cause their bankruptcy.

    ---

    Lack of parts or lack or cash aren't very good when you are hurting, and may mean even popular models may end up in short supply.
     
  17. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    Jul 4, 2004
    #17
    Let's talk about 2007, not 2005



    These agreements were already in place. Yet, somehow the bottom collapsed out of the economy and all of a sudden, it's the unions fault? Give me a break.
     
  18. gotzero macrumors 68040

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    #18
    As goofed up as the UAW is, this was not a union problem. No one should be any angrier at the UAW today then they were a year or two ago.

    Would you buy something expensive that regularly could need repairs/parts from a bankrupt company? Also, as I mentioned above, it is a layer cake. GM goes under, and suddenly AIG owes tens of billions of dollars to CDS holders. Suppliers go under, unemployment flies up, etc.
     
  19. drichards macrumors 6502a

    drichards

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    #19
    General Motors and the other American companies have a significant retired worker population to provide healthcare for that the Japanese and Koreans do not have in America because they haven't been building cars here for over fifty years. The proliferation of Asian vehicle manufacturing in the US began in the late 70s and didn't pick up much until the early 90s. GM has union contracts to uphold, and they should. But you OP seem to think its all the union's fault, and its not. If the US had social healthcare, the situation would be improved, but its not an argument to get into.
     
  20. dinaluvsApple thread starter macrumors regular

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    #20
    Chapter 11.

    Numerous airlines were in Ch11 and people still flew on them. How many times was UAUA in chapter 11? Did those people lose their jobs? Did people stop flying United?

    im just pointing out, what led to all this.

    i do agree big mistakes were made at the top with the biggest being agreeing to all the greedy demands from the unions.
    This isn't the Chrysler bailout of the late 70s when they could still compete. Fact is the auto manufacturers today are welfare organizations that only makes cars on the side.
     
  21. gotzero macrumors 68040

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    #21
    I do not really view that as a direct comparison. A car is a "durable good", and one thing I do believe the automakers about is the fact that people will be reluctant to buy something as big as a car from a bankrupt company, reorganizing or not. Flying on a bankrupt airline would be like riding a Caprice Classic taxi. There is a big difference between renting space and buying the car.

    United was not profitable for a number of reasons, but their bankruptcy operations were analogous to their normal ones. The same cannot be said for a durable goods company. You are thinking about the ticket and you should be thinking about the plane. Imagine if Boeing went bankrupt instead of United. Would you want to buy a $100M plane from them if parts and support might not be available in the future?
     
  22. rhsgolfer33 macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    As a Republican that actually has an understanding of economics I think this is terrible. What we really need right now is a major company in our economy to file for bankruptcy and cut thousands of jobs, yeah, thats great for the economy. The Republicans that cut this down should be ousted as soon as possible. Allowing these companies to fail will not only harm the economy in terms of jobs but will decrease the governments tax revenue as well (just what we need with a 11 Trillion dollar national debt, less revenue).

    Its funny that you think people building Fords make more than people building Honda's, they make about the same per hour; all that $70 an hour figure includes tons of pension and healthcare expense for retired workers that Honda doesn't have.

    I dislike labor unions extremely, but saying the labor union caused all this is ludicrous. The labor union played a part, but lack of innovation and failing to diversify their vehicles are what caused this, the union was a small contributing factor; if anything it was the automakers lack of backbone in fighting the union that contributed a portion to higher costs. dinaluvsApple, you're living in a delusional world fed by too much Bill O'Reilly and Rush, try thinking for yourself for a change, you'll realize those guys have little value other than for humor.
     
  23. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #23
    Down with blue collar workers :mad:
     
  24. drichards macrumors 6502a

    drichards

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    #24
    The union's job is to secure a living wage and adequate retirement benefits for its members. And the union is not the problem. These companies may be called mis-managed. They may be accused of making poor decisions on what vehicles to build and not build. They killed the electric car and built Hummers.

    But I'll let you in on a little secret.

    We wanted Hummers. We wanted Escalades, we wanted F150's, we wanted SuperCrew extended bed giant pickups. The Ford F150 was the best selling vehicle in America for over twenty years. And when Ford, GM, and Chrysler asked focus groups what they wanted, they delivered. The Americans are jabbed about the small car quality, about midsize fuel efficiency, and so on. But until 2007, nobody cared.

    This whole situation everything is in is based on the downfall of credit from an over extension of home and auto loans to underqualified people who defaulted on their mortgage and car payments. This caused a mild recession and devaluation of the dollar, which caused prices of goods to change, and later caused consumer spending to change in a negative fashion.

    It caused panic. Which caused the bank crash, which turned to the bailout, which punished the entire world economy. And now gas is down and you might still have a job so you might feel like things are on the up and up. But credit is still trashed, futures of everything are being shorted, and the turmoil has just begun.
     
  25. drichards macrumors 6502a

    drichards

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    #25
    That is a really saddening attitude.
     

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