Violence at Catalan independence referendum

Falhófnir

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Aug 19, 2017
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As is being widely reported, the Spanish government have brutally reacted to the Catalan government’s referendum on independence being held today - over 465 people so far have been injured by the police crackdown. The Spanish government has called the referendum ‘illegal’ as it’s justification for its actions, but has received near universal condemnation from international leaders over it’s disproportionate handling of the quarrel. It seems to me this will simply add fuel to the independence fire - Spain has possibly just sealed Catalan independence in a spectacular own goal.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live
 

juanm

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The stronger the response from the PP government, the better, in the eyes of their voters, just like if California wanted to secede and Trump sent the army, his base would cheer him.
 

juanm

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Yeah, I don't understand why governments think that a violent crackdown is going to do anything other than make the people they're cracking down on even more defiant.
The PP in Catalonia has around 13%, they have nothing to lose, but they have a lot to gain in the rest of Spain if they show strength against separatists.
 
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Huntn

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The article says polls indicate 60% are against separation. I’m not familiar with the issue, but political self determination was mentioned. I assume these areas are States that have representation in the Spanish government?
 
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Bug-Creator

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May 30, 2011
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The article says polls indicate 60% are against separation.
Expect these numbers to fall pretty soon.

In a way Mr Rajoy is making the same mistake that Mr Cameron made when he agreed on a Brexit vote (kind the other way round, but the results will be similar). He wants to gain support in the rest of Spain by playing strong man but will end up weakened in a even more deeply divided Spain.

If that 60% was correct he should have let the vote go on and afterwards he could have acted the seperatists as an unimportant minority.
 

Falhófnir

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Yeah, I don't understand why governments think that a violent crackdown is going to do anything other than make the people they're cracking down on even more defiant.
The article says polls indicate 60% are against separation. I’m not familiar with the issue, but political self determination was mentioned. I assume these areas are States that have representation in the Spanish government?
My understanding is there isn’t an outright majority for independence, and support has diminished slightly from its peak around the time of the worst of the financial crisis, but that it could still well be a plurality of definite voters, due to those who want independence being more passionate about the issue in general. I think that’s what complicates the issue and I’m guessing that’s what has prompted the Spanish government to try and suppress the referendum.

Catalonia is a Spanish ‘autonomous community’ - effectively similar to a state I guess. They have their own language (Catalan - almost sounds like a mix between French and Spanish in terms of vocab to me) and as they’re one of the more prosperous Spanish regions they do subsidise the rest of the country to a degree (though in fairness the richer regions subsidising the poorer is the case with just about every country on earth). Part of what was historically the kingdom of Catalonia is also just across the border in France.

The PP in Catalonia has around 13%, they have nothing to lose, but they have a lot to gain in the rest of Spain if they show strength against separatists.
Yeah it seems like they might have had their hand forced to an extent, as above, due to the overall arithmetic of the vote. It’s not an excuse for reacting how they have, but I think that explains why they have felt the need to play strongman on this...
 
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VulchR

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Perhaps the one thing the UK government has done well over the pats decade or so is not get in the way of the Scottish referendum on independence. There been some obstructionism about calling a second one as a result of Brexit, but even the SNP seem to think a delay until Brexit is negotiated makes sense. I wish the Spanish government had taken a cue from the UK. If the Catalan referendum was unconstitutional, then why not adjust the Constitution to allow a democratic vote? The Spanish government could very well be playing into the hands of extremists by cracking down. Then again, the Spanish government has never really shown a commitment to respecting the wishes of people, with the most obvious example of this being their nonsensical commitment to ignoring the will of the people of Gibraltor.
 

Eraserhead

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Expect these numbers to fall pretty soon.

In a way Mr Rajoy is making the same mistake that Mr Cameron made when he agreed on a Brexit vote (kind the other way round, but the results will be similar). He wants to gain support in the rest of Spain by playing strong man but will end up weakened in a even more deeply divided Spain.

If that 60% was correct he should have let the vote go on and afterwards he could have acted the seperatists as an unimportant minority.
I certainly know where my position lies on Catalan independence
 

sim667

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Dec 7, 2010
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All I’m saying is that two weeks ago I didn’t care. Now I think the Spanish are wankers.
I've always thought the Spanish government were wankers, horrendously corrupt.

On the flip side, I spent a lot of my Childhood in Spain (specifically Catalonia), and always found people there to be warm and welcoming, although the older generation are still suspicious of different skin colours.
[doublepost=1506932888][/doublepost]Spanish Police attacking Firemen who were trying to protect voters

Catalan Police in tears whilst protecting voters from Spanish Police

It speaks volumes when Firemen and Local Police are trying to protect the public from the Guardia.
 

juanm

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I've always thought the Spanish government were wankers, horrendously corrupt.

On the flip side, I spent a lot of my Childhood in Spain (specifically Catalonia), and always found people there to be warm and welcoming, although the older generation are still suspicious of different skin colours.
[doublepost=1506932888][/doublepost]Spanish Police attacking Firemen who were trying to protect voters

Catalan Police in tears whilst protecting voters from Spanish Police

It speaks volumes when Firemen and Local Police are trying to protect the public from the Guardia.
Let's not forget those same Mossos (Catalan Police) are known for their brutality as well. It just happens that yesterday they just happened to be on receiving side for once. They were created by the conservative separatist party so that they'd have their own political police, come this moment.
 

sim667

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Let's not forget those same Mossos (Catalan Police) are known for their brutality as well. It just happens that yesterday they just happened to be on receiving side for once. They were created by the conservative separatist party so that they'd have their own political police, come this moment.
The Mossos used to have a really bad rep, granted, but they've become reasonably well liked in recent years. The Mossos have taken more steps to stamp out corruption in its ranks, the Guardia haven't. Additionally the Guardia were top of the police pecking order in the Franco era, and are particularly disliked in Catalonia due to that.
 

sim667

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A lose-lose situation. What happens to a new Catalan country, whose main trading partner is Spain?
The Catalan economy props up the Spanish one. Catalonia is a very very wealthy region of Spain.
 

Eraserhead

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So liberals now support secession?
I couldn’t care less as long as the peaceful protestors and voters aren’t being suppressed by riot police and that the polling stations aren’t being raided by police.

Once the government of a region agrees to hold a referendum you don’t have much choice but to let it happen. By all means require a supermajority though.
 
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