Violence at Israeli border

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by OutThere, May 15, 2011.

  1. OutThere macrumors 603

    OutThere

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Location:
    NYC
    #1
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/16/world/middleeast/16mideast.html?hp

    I am strongly for non-violent protest, however it becomes difficult when a large portion of the disenfranchised people who want to protest aren't actually allowed anywhere near where their protests might have some effect. My visit to Israel last fall only strengthened my feeling that the Israeli position is untenable. The continued settlement by Israelis, and their apartheid-like treatment of the Palestinians is unacceptable.

    While it is not immediately clear from the picture (cropped from a iPhone photo/no zoom), this overlook made me think. Standing on the sidewalk that loops the ancient stone exterior wall of the Old City in Jerusalem, you can see, between the two bluffs, a short segment of the 8m/26' high concrete West Bank wall, vehicle trench and wide exclusion area, as it snakes along the hilltops, separating Israel from the Palestinian territory. Really gave me pause.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Communard de Londres
    #2
    This video cheered me up enormously,it's great to see what ordinary people can achieve when the get a sniff of freedom.In spite of eight of them being killed they ripped down one of the most heavily defended borders in the world.This is the kind of thing that scares authoritarian statists shiteless:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekgkuAaTjPg&feature=player_embedded
     
  3. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Location:
    Illinois
    #3
    Is there anything ordinary about this group of displaced people? Do they want to co-exist? Can they co-exist? Have they elected representatives who have a history of reasonable dialogue? Is there an end-game solution that the international community will agree to? Are the people who displaced them in a position where they would be willing to engage in reasonable discussions? If not, why?
     
  4. Burnsey macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2007
    Location:
    Canada
    #4
    Relevant:

    Former Israeli soldiers break the silence on military violations

    More at Link
     
  5. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    #5
    Oh you know how it works:

    "Grant us the oppressed freedom so that in decades hence those we oppress may rally against us and demmandeth their freedom" :rolleyes:

    If only we learned from history's lessons.
     
  6. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Communard de Londres
    #6
    Palestinians in general have been more than reasonable about co-existing with the Israelis.In this particular case these are Palestinians from refugee camps in Syria and as such don't have a vote anywhere,although other representatives of theirs in the occupied territories have been less dogmatic about negotiating than have the Israelis the people now realise all these "leaders" have sold them out over the last 60 odd years and are now taking things into their own hands (you can see this over most of the middle east).I personally would support a one state solution but there are other possibilities.They won't give up they've only just begun,the Irish have been fighting the Brits/English for over 700 years and are still going they haven't secured freedom yet but they will.
     
  7. barkomatic macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2008
    Location:
    Manhattan
    #7
    A one state solution would only work if the new state were purely secular in nature and had a constitution with guaranteed civil rights. My impression is that Jewish people want a Jewish state and Palestinians want an Islamic state. I don't know how anyone is going to solve that.
     
  8. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Communard de Londres
    #8
    Most of the leaders certainly do,I agree about the secular and constitutional bits and I believe given a chance people on both sides could live with that.
     
  9. Macky-Mac macrumors 68030

    Macky-Mac

    Joined:
    May 18, 2004
    #9
    if people on both sides were prepared to live in peace, then whether there's a western style single secular state or some other arrangement wouldn't matter so much
     
  10. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #10
    I'd agree with you that religion is a never-to-be-solved problem here but that's just crazy! Religion never caused any problems....
     
  11. ender land macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    #11
    Isn't that the truth.

    If all groups in the Middle East really wanted to live in peace and find a peaceful solution they would be able to. Unfortunately there are plenty of people on both sides who never will agree to anything of that sort.

    Not to mention Israel probably is incredibly skeptical and paranoid about peace, as are the Palestinians skeptical of Israel actually allowing them to live in peace, etc.
     
  12. BigBeast macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    #12
    This is patently false.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #13
    How would you define "reasonable" behaviour towards prison guards from the perspective of those living in a concentration camp?
     
  14. BigBeast macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    #14
    I think Israelis themselves would indeed know best about concentration camps.

    Please don't ask questions regarding a single incident without complete context of the situation. That's why I only gave my opinion to his statement that Palestinians are peaceful. A person who makes a statement like that is in no way in touch with the real world. Why waste my time, effort, and frustration when I know anything I say will not be accepted? It will be picked apart and deemed false by their weak what if's, lies, and "he said she said"- when you can clearly see that at MANY times, Hamas, it's allies, and other Islamic fundamentalist organizations repeatedly provoke Israeli just to have the media capture such situation and then say "We didn't do anything!" :rolleyes:

    The PLO, and now HAMAS, were, are, and will always be an Islamic fundamentalist (which BTW means they full believe every text in their Quran) terrorist organization. Did you forget Hamas' firing of rockets at Israelis in 2008 or the fact that Hamas tries to carry out kidnappings and suicide bombings on Israel constantly?

    So just stop. Please.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #15
    Did you forget that the Palestinians have been under military occupation and that Israel has been stealing their land in clear violation of international law for fifty years? Did you forget that?
     
  16. BigBeast macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    #16
    Not at all. I don't agree that Israel should be expanding into Palestinian territory. HOWEVER, it is not my country. And Israel will proceed with what they believe is in their best interest. A country will abide with their own laws and interests first, international law second. Would you, as a leader of your country, listen to what outside governments told you to do before listening to the cries of your people and your own countries interest? Hm...

    Have you forgotten that some of the places that Israel has occupied are revealed to be housing extremists which actively tunnel under Israeli borders to complete clandestine missions of terror and mass killing?

    It's not like Israel is just firing rockets into crowds of peaceful people and trying to conquer and take land. I would challenge Palestine to stop trying to provoke Israel and to allow peaceful negotiations to take place, but that is not what Palestine wants. Palestine wants an Earth without Israel.

    I'd like both governments to come to a peaceful decision and stop hate and killing. But saying that Palestinians have been trying to make peace is silly. That's the reason for my original post. They're run by a terrorist organization for cryin' out loud!
     
  17. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #17
    Are we talking about Israel or Palestine?
     
  18. BigBeast macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2009
    #18
    Thank you for proving a point. No need to continue providing my opinion.
     
  19. (marc) macrumors 6502a

    (marc)

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Location:
    the woods
    #19
    BS. I've been in the West Bank a few months ago. They got markets, schools, cafés, etc. It's nothing like a concentration camp. I talked with some Palestinians and they told me they were sad to "not have had any direct clashes with the Israelis" during the last months. :rolleyes:
     
  20. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #20
    It's sad the lengths humans will go to vilify others.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #21
    They have markets, schools and cafés in Gaza, too, so everything must be hunky-dory. The fact that they are not allowed free movement in their own territory, are not empowered to import and export freely, are not permitted to grow any crops taller than 40cm, and are subject to punitive invasions and summary execution, these things are only minor irritations, I'm sure. They shouldn't be so picky, should they?
     
  22. (marc) macrumors 6502a

    (marc)

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Location:
    the woods
    #22
    I never said everything was hunky-dory. But concentration camp just isn't the right term. Most people in the West Bank can enter Israel and other countries. There's good reason to restrict the transfer of goods into and out of Gaza. The Hamas has demonstrated its will to violently attack Israel often enough, and the next Intifada could start pretty much anytime.

    Huh? :confused:
     
  23. codymac macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    #23
    This. Bears. Repeating.

    Why have they been allowed to do this? League of Nations? Failure of British colonialism? Global guilt over the "final solution?" Munich? Anti-arabic sentiment?

    I've never seen a satisfactory answer as to why it's been allowed to continue for so long.

    One man's terrorist is another man's patriot.
     
  24. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Hartford, CT
    #24
    Does proportionality matter at all? Israel has killed and disappeared far more people in "response" to Hamas attacks than the attacks they are responding to.

    The death-toll is heavily on one side.
     
  25. neko girl macrumors 6502a

    neko girl

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2011
    #25
    It's oddly ironic that the State of Israel has created one out of the West Bank.
     

Share This Page