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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SPG, Oct 17, 2004.
If you check out the site, it has all the links. South Knox Bubba
Thank you. A must read for all diehard republicans.
Yes, but... Kerry is a flip-flopper. Don't you see? He changed his mind. Why should Bush run on his record, when he could just personally attack Kerry?
I'm really surprised so many people are falling for Bush's rhetoric.
Yup that about sums it up.
It is quite shocking to me and mine that their are so many ignorant people in America today.
My father was a career marine, and my earliest memories as a boy was the great pride that I felt when I saw him in uniform. I felt like my father was single handedly protecting America from danger. Even when I was in my teens and was a pot smoking, tree hugging', hippy, I was very proud of my father. Even though he was fighting a war that in the end America could not win, and that I DID NOT support, I was proud of him.
But now as I sit here, I can't help feel that my soul is being split in two. On one side is my pride for my country. I am VERY proud and in awe of our girls and boys in the service. Their willingness to give up their lives for the belief that they are protecting us, is a true testament to human compassion. To sacrifice ones self for the good of the many is possibly the biggest gift one could give.
But on the other hand I do not have the ability to understand why this administration has so eagerly endangered the lives of our children and for what? Oil? To give a country something they obviously don't want? Money? Why the **** are they doing this to our children?
Ok so we had to take their WMD's away so they can not harm us or anyone else. Fine, but now that we know they don't have them, WHY THE **** ARE WE THERE? Yes Sadam is a very evil person that needed to be dealt with. But now that we have him? WHY THE **** ARE OUR CHILDREN STILL DYING?
Just come out and tell me Bush, What Exactly Are Our Children Dying For? Give me some reason to trust America again, hell give the world a reason to trust America again. Because make believe WMDs and Evil Sadam, just arnt enough to justify sacrificing our young people like this.
As I watch the news I can't help but to feel totally and utterly disgusted with my country. As the death tolls keep rising I feel pity for these children, for they died because our president was to busy defending his war then to see the mistakes he has made and to learn from this country other mistakes (read vietnam). For a man that is opposed to abortion because it "destroys life" he sure is hell bent on finding reason to destroy more life.
But like a north bound train, his day is coming fast, and hopefully Kerry will be able to help bring back some of the pride I felt as a boy.
As the great Bob Dylan says,
"Even the president of the united states must sometimes have stand and look at himself naked."
That is UNBELIEVABLE I will never understand America if he gets voted back in
That makes two of us (and I live there).
Hey, don't misquote THE MAN! No self-regard included.
Make that 3 of us..
From the title of this thread I thought it might lure in a few Republicans who would explain why they intend voting for Bush.
Seems there is a remarkable reluctance in this area! I wonder why? You would have thought that a person about to vote for leader of the free world would be happy and willing to share their thoughts.
Could it be that voting Bush is somehow percieved, even by the individuals themselves, as a guilt-ridden, self-interested and shameful deed, to be kept between the voter and their maker!
A question that should have been asked before we went. Many did try to warn that going there would be a mistake, but they did not listen. Just like they didn't listen before 9/11. Just like they aren't listening now. Ignoring or attacking anyone who disagrees with them, even if they turn out to be right. Fighting the 9/11 Commision, then taking credit for it. Talking about all sorts of social and economic programs, then underfunding them and talking about how great they are and how good things are going, though it plainly is not. And yet they want me to trust them with my safety, and my country? My world? I don't think so.
I do not understand how anyone with their eyes open could stand behind Bush.
There has been a bit of discussion lately about the different worlds that bush supporters and the rest of us inhabit. I've heard it described as a battle of faith based versus reality based. On the surface that sounds especially harsh towards the bush supporters, but if you look at it closely it is a very accurate description.
They have faith that bush will do the right thing. They have faith that bush is a man of principle and a strong leader. They have faith that Kerry is a liberal flip flopper.
The facts say the opposite. The reality is that bush's interests are not always the same as his supporters. bush flip flops. bush sat in a classroom having a book read to him for seven minutes after being told the country was under attack. Their faith that Kerry is bad is only to justify their faith that bush is good.
It's a hard thing to lose your faith. If you're a religious person you don't want to know that God doesn't exist. You will not seek that information. Given that information you will still believe that he exists. I believe in God and even given irrefutable proof that he doesn't exist, I will still believe in God out of pure faith.
These people believe in bush. For them not to believe would be devastating. How can a bush supporter come in here and debate his merits on his record and on the results of his policies? They can't and they don't want to. Any defense of the bush administration and bush the man degenerate into arguments against the other guy, or empty hype ups of the myth of bush. Any of bush's accomplishments quickly crumble when the real effects are exposed under the spin. Reread the list and tell me what bush has really done that would trump that list and make it a good idea to vote for him.
I am a Republican and I am "happy and willing" to share my thoughts. However, what is the point? I am not going to change anyone's mind. You are not going to change my mind. Am I not going to change my mind because I have faith in Bush and won't give it up as SPG suggested? No.
If you believe this, there is nothing the Bush campaign, I, or anyone else can say that will make any difference. Personally, I think if you believe this you are not looking at the facts. I believe Kerry is doing whatever he can to get elected, regardless of whether it contradicts something he has previously said. I tried to show the inconsistency of Kerry on guns in another thread and everyone there couldn't care less. If there was a poll of people on where Kerry stood on the issues, I think it would be very divided because Kerry is not clear on where he stands (for example, where does Kerry stand on whether we should have gone to war in Iraq?).
I think it is scary that many people are willing to vote for Kerry just because he is not Bush. Bush doesn't have much going for him as far as the circumstances that he has had since he has been in office. However, many people want to blame everything that is wrong in our country on Bush. I think this is just plain wrong. For example, people complain that Bush hasn't funded the programs he has created but the same people complain about how high the deficit is and how bad the economy is. You can't have it both ways. Kerry says that he is going to raise taxes only on those that make over 200k but it has been shown that this is not possible. Where is the other money going to come from?
OK, I'm going to end my post. Maybe I'll post more of what I think if anyone cares. It is surprising to me that even though the country is about evenly divided on who to vote for, I am about the only Bush supporter in these political forums. That's a big reason I don't post or even look in these forums often. It seems to be a place for everyone to just bash on Bush.
Picking up on this one point: Kerry has made his position abundantly clear, and that fact won't change no matter how often you suggest otherwise. The real issue here is whether you or any other diehard Bush supporters are prepared to listen to what Kerry actually says, instead of the administration's spin on what he says. This campaign really does boil down to a fight between truth and spin.
I know he said he gave power to the President to make the decision. However, he had the same intelligence that Bush had. He hasn't said, "yes, I would have gone into Iraq" or "no, I would not have gone into Iraq". If he wouldn't have gone into Iraq, why did he vote to give Bush the power to do so? Anytime I say anything anti-Kerry, everyone just says I am putting the administration's spin on what Kerry says. I am simply stating what I feel and I try not to just use the same arguments that are repeated over and over. It is absurd to think that what Kerry and the Democratic Party say is the absolute truth and has no spin.
Kerry has said he'd have allowed the inspections to continue, would have built a more meaningful coalition if war became a necessity, and made certain that post-war plans were in place to, in his words "secure the peace." This just so happens to be the same line of argument he's made consistently for years, and also the argument made by many, many others (both in the US and abroad) in response to Bush's shoot first and ask questions later policy. The fact that this position is today irrefutably the correct one to have taken makes it a necessity, I guess, for the Bush campaign to constantly misrepresent it.
Actually, I think it's because we all know that on this forum, what the for-bush people say will never be right. Only the opinion of the not-for-bush crowd prevails here.
Which is odd, why are you 'not-for-bush' rather than 'for-kerry'? I just can't fathom that. In recent polls (pick your favorite US news site) 75% of bush backers are 'for-bush', only 30% of kerry backers are 'for-kerry'.
We could put all of the troops we want outside of Iraq but war cannot be declared without Congress' consent. In order for our threat of force to have any credibility Congress needed to give the president authorization to declare war. Bush assured congress that he would work to find a diplomatic solution and only use war as a last resort, which he did not do.
did he? according to some (richard clarke, seymour hersh, et. al.), the WH selected intelligence and showed only what made its case.
does that make a difference to you?
I see from your profile that you've only been here a few months. I have to tell you that when I joined nearly two years ago it was close to a 50/50 split. I agree that things are different now with a predominance of anti-Bush sentiments represented.
What could explain this? What I have seen is that, one by one, the hard-right, pro-Bush posters have been comprehensively out-argued and have either suddenly vanished into thin air or have resorted to personal abuse and have been banned. Make of that what you may.
kilpajr - you suggest most of Kerry's support is due to anti-Bush feeling rather that actively supporting Kerry himself, yet you yourself in replying to a "Voting for Bush?" thread don't give a single positive reason for voting Republican but rather repeat the parrot-like jibe about Kerry flip-flopping (the substance of which has been well answered by atszyman and IJ Reilly).
You really should try and attain some consistency in your argument if you wish to be taken seriously.
Hmm, seems in the latest poll, the 'for-kerry' number has actually improved, the article I was reading originally was dated Oct. 5th. In any case, here's the
Fox News From all that I've ever read on here opinions of Fox news are not the best, they're not exactly the best source for reliable information so I gather.
i am "happy and willing" to hear your thoughts about the accomplishments of bush during the last four years. perhaps you'd care to discuss:
1) the largest deficit in history ( coming out of a surplus).
2) bush's environmental record.
3) bush's record of gross job losses.
4) the rise in people uninsured and living in poverty in the u.s.
5) the quagmire of iraq/ expansion of al queda
6) the squandering of world support after 9/11
7) tax cuts that favor the wealthy.
8) how bush's financial record conforms to the republican view of fiscal responsibility. ( see #1)
9) the administration's failure/unwillingness to disclose the procedure by which it created our energy policy.
please, sway me...