Waiting for Mac Pro 7,1

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by Mago, May 31, 2016.

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  1. singhs.apps macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    #6701

    Ah. Ok. Modo will have an inbuilt GPU renderer soon, though it's in pretty early stages - AMD pro renderer (already part of Cinema4D ). And once you go GPU rendering it's hard to go back to CPU and even the traditional bottlenecks - Out of core, Idle CPUs will be a thing of the past the way renders are moving, harnessing all the power of the system - GPU+CPU.

    Based on what you are doing, I think an iMac pro seems to be a good choice. For now.
     
  2. Biped macrumors newbie

    Biped

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    #6702
    You know, I never understood the logic of this argument. It's like insisting that you can only draw venn diagrams with two circles, and neither of them can touch / overlap each other. And it is about as annoying as the 'well it works fine for me' response that seems to sit at the top of every forum thread asking for troubleshooting assistance.
     
  3. flowrider, Nov 7, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017

    flowrider macrumors 601

    flowrider

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2012
    #6703
    Then IMHO, you are not a candidate for a Mac Pro. An iMac Pro would suit you just fine. But, for those of us who want a machine we can keep for awhile and keep relevant, an expandable machine with good architecture is just the ticket.

    We are not forcing anything on you. Apple makes plenty of machines NOW, that would suit you just fine. No current Macintosh suits me however.

    AND note - I have been using Macintosh since 1986.

    Lou
     
  4. mattspace macrumors 6502a

    mattspace

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Location:
    Australia
    #6704
    Unfortunately, losing all that expandability that you didn't use, didn't reduce the price of the machine, which is part of the unrest over the cylinder, and was at the core of the distaste for the G4 cube.

    Ideally, you shouldn't have to pay for capacity you don't need - that's why so many of us find the iMac unpleasant, we don't want to have to buy a monitor to get a new computer (or in the case of the 2013, didn't want to buy dual or AMD video cards). Ideally, the Mac Pro would be like those modular wish-fulfilment designs we've seen, where the PCI section was a separate module from the processor and iO sections, linked by some sort of hyper-fast, super-wide connector (which Thunderbolt isn't).

    BUT, in the scenario where Apple is going to not make a lego kit machine, what is better overall, that you personally have machine with some unused extra capacity that sits idle, or that people who need that flexibility leave the mac ecosystem entirely, and take with them part of the pool of potential Mac Pro customers, which further endangers your chances of getting new Mac Pros into the future?

    As it stands, you're still going to get the only machine you were going to have an option to get - the iMac Pro was going to be the only Pro desktop in Apple's future, the sole replacement for the 2013. So realistically, the discussion is to speculate about what the philosophy behind the machine that Apple wasn't going to build will be.

    What the amigos said about what was wrong with the 2013 was flavoured with PR - yes painting themselves into a thermal corner is bad, but what that really says is that they made a design that allowed them to be painted into a thermal corner. It was the philosophy of the design that was wrong, not the implementation, but saying that would raise questions about leadership direction etc which can effect stock prices, investor lawsuits etc.
     
  5. iPadified macrumors member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    #6705
    I really stirred up the hornets nest this time. :). No a modular MP is not for me, but you know, I will not speak ill about it it just becuase of that. The discussion would be much nicer and much more informative if you accepted and accounted for different user cases. There is more than a tendancy here that the 2013 MP gets hate when in relity Apple should get hate for not having a ungradable MP in their product portfolio. Similarly, if the iMac Pro will be discontinued becuase of a mMP, I will be very irritated. In my opinion they are both ”Pro” but aimed at different user settings.
    --- Post Merged, Nov 8, 2017 ---
    Thanks for the rumour. I have not followed the updates at The foundary for awhile. Hope they also include Mac support for the GPU render.
     
  6. flowrider macrumors 601

    flowrider

    Joined:
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    #6706
    Yes, as I stated above. The iMac Pro for YOU, The Trash Can - not for ME, however:eek:

    Lou
     
  7. Mago thread starter macrumors 68000

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    Beyond the Thunderdome
    #6707
    Actually blame the marketing department for all those never used slot, as it was a major feature on the 80's, while actually was unusual somebody used more than three expansion slots, and this because one was populated by the video, and the audio, later with the Integrated peripherals popularity the expansion slots become a thing for gamers and very specialized users.
     
  8. Biped macrumors newbie

    Biped

    Joined:
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    #6708
    Actually, recalling my experiences with computers of the 80's and 90's. Sanyo MBC-555 only had like one slot on it, which pissed me off. My ZX-81 had one slot but you could piggyback. All the PS/2 systems I worked on were 1/2 slot on risers iirc. In fact it was the Apple IIe that was the ubiquitous expansion slot monster back in the day. As pros/hobbyists we had no problems filling up the slots on those 286+ generic PCs... because nothing was onboard.... Interesting that, you didn't get anything you didn't pay for, wasn't that the motivation of the post ? Ironic.
     
  9. Derived macrumors regular

    Derived

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    Midwest
    #6709
    I still remain utterly confused as to why people still feel personally, emotionally attacked by the fact that Apple is making an iMac Pro. This nonsense has been going on for 5 months now and it seems like it's not stopping any time soon. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Period. The end. Over. Done. Finished. If it's not for you, it's not for you. They doubtless will sell many of them, which is good for them and good for the people that buy them. I don't see why we need to continue to whine about this machine as if somehow in any way it affects you as a person if you *are not buying one.*

    Anyway.

    The "all things to all people" line is pretty much the only thing that matters. It needs to be a workstation that can be used for any sort of heavy workload easily. Full-stop. And needs to be upgradable. And, again, given the harsh lesson they've learned, I'm quite sure it will be. I get why there's cynicism, but again, they didn't build the nMP just to make MacRumors forum members angry, as hard to believe as that may be for some of you. That's not really a viable business model, trolling your customers.
     
  10. MarkJames68 macrumors regular

    MarkJames68

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2017
    #6710
    Piggyback? Behold, the venerable TI home computer...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. flat five macrumors 603

    flat five

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    Location:
    newyorkcity
    #6711
    this is so standard it's not even funny.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_for_hire


    i mean, when's the last time you saw a photographer credited with shooting an ad campaign?.. it's so rare to see something like that happen unless, maybe, the photographer is famous or that the ad was shot by a particular photographer is part of the spiel..

    if i hire you to come shoot a project of mine, you get your credit alright.. the credit is in the form of my money in your hands.


    (and i'm just using photographer as a single example)
     
  12. pat500000 macrumors 604

    pat500000

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    #6712
    Just about iphone x....lol.
     
  13. mattspace macrumors 6502a

    mattspace

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    #6713
    I guess the main difference is that WETA were very much trading on the effects for LOTR being done in-house. It's one thing for an ad agency to hire a photographer and not credit them (although under Moral Rights law, which I don't believe America adheres to very strongly, work for hire doesn't generally extinguish the right to be credited), it's another altogether for them to publicly talk about how they shot it themselves with one of their inhouse employees, collect awards for "their" photography etc.

    In the case of LOTR, artists at the subcontracted studios weren't allowed to ever claim credit for their work, use it in showreels etc. It's quite a sore point for the folks involved.
     
  14. OS6-OSX macrumors 6502a

    OS6-OSX

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    California
    #6714
  15. rjtiedeman macrumors regular

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    Stamford, CT
    #6715
  16. CWallace macrumors 603

    CWallace

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    Aug 17, 2007
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    #6716
    There pricing is too high, especially as they are using E5 Xeons as opposed to the fairly cheaper actual W-series. I figured it would be closer to $11,000, but that was also with E5's. With W Series, we're possibly below $10,000.
     
  17. pat500000 macrumors 604

    pat500000

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    #6717
  18. William Payne macrumors 6502a

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    Location:
    Wanganui, New Zealand.
    #6718
    Back when the cheese grater mac pro was still available new I remember I priced one out just too see what it would cost here in New Zealand if one was maxed out. In New Zealand dollars at the time it was over $20,000
     
  19. askunk macrumors regular

    askunk

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2011
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    London
    #6719
    You're definitely right. However, some may wonder if professionals have enough money to buy the maxed out version, do they really need to work at all? :D
    --- Post Merged, Nov 10, 2017 ---
    Moving on... I believe almost everybody (including me) believes that eGPUs aren't a mMP issue. Nevertheless, I think it's worth noticing how the market is moving.

    https://9to5mac.com/2017/11/10/sonnet-egfx-breakaway-box-550-external-gpu-87w-power-delivery/

    Will TB4 avoid data flow saturation for the high-end cards?
     
  20. pat500000 macrumors 604

    pat500000

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2015
    #6720
    :D Good ol' customizing classic mac pro.
     
  21. Mago thread starter macrumors 68000

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    Beyond the Thunderdome
    #6721
    Another 9to5mac article targeted as click bait to build traffic, and of course lack accuracy, just check the relative markups Apple billed on the tcMP6,1 three year ago.

    I've done some numbers and I consider the loaded iMac wont rise beyond 9999$, and it is mostly due Intel hiking Xeon-W prices by about 25% compared with 2013 figures, while AMD GPUs are now cheaper, as SSD toos, memory quite stable sadly memory will be the most expensive upgrade.

    PD. Before iMacs release, 9to5mac will publish the AWWWEEEESOME MIGHTY GOAL BY APPLE Selling the iMac Pro at 70% less than Analysts predicted (their analysts)...
     
  22. Joe The Dragon macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    #6722
    TB4 needs to have more pci-e lanes and maybe pci-e 4.0
     
  23. Flint Ironstag macrumors 6502a

    Flint Ironstag

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    Dec 1, 2013
    Location:
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    #6723
    Yeah, it's a tough spot. Right now I'd just like them to give us a decent EFI for nMP until 7,1 arrives (I think it should boot with 6 eGPUs attached, if not more - TB2 was supposed to be the bomb).

    Yes the 7,1 should have plenty of room for internal GPUs, but we should also be able to stack them in an eGPU enclosure if we wish. For a lot of strictly computational tasks, the TB2 penalty is fairly insignificant. Bit if your particular task is chatty and requires a lot of bandwidth... Yeah I think TB4 + PCIe 4 will begin to address that issue.
     
  24. vailr, Nov 11, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

    vailr macrumors member

    vailr

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    #6724
    That's what the world needs: a Mac Pro with 8 or 10 PCIe slots that would allow installation of that many video cards for Bitcoin mining.
    A "Mac Pro Bitcoin Miner".
    Or: install 4x GTX Titan X video cards, for live streaming 8k video content.
     
  25. -hh macrumors 68020

    -hh

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2001
    Location:
    NJ Highlands, Earth
    #6725
    (As good of a context as any to comment & continue)

    On sales volume, I think it comes down to a couple of factors and considerations. Sure, we can try to wave over a crystal ball to guess at unit volumes, but the IMO simpler metric is simply to ask "what's the 3rd Party aftermarket like?". Point being that if Company XYZ is willing to design, fab & sell something like an SSD upgrade for a tcMP, then the tcMP market is presumably "big enough" that they see a viable business opportunity. And so on.

    Problem with this approach is that these opportunities may be "too small" for the $0.9T Market Cap Apple to consider worth bothering to go after ... but this really also crosses this conversation into marketing, cross-product line revenues, and so forth. To this end, has not nearly every new Mac Pro (style) machine been rolled out with the marketing hype of "Most Powerful Mac EVER!"? The point here is that Halo products often exist for mindshare, not to be particularly profitable on their own.

    And pulling a line from the above:

    This is really getting into the underlying motivations of the customer, with the emphasis here being why they select 3rd Party rather than Genuine OEM Apple. The history here is functionally twofold: agility and cost. Specifically, the 3rd Parties are typically much faster to market than Apple and they're cheaper to boot.

    Apple effectively has a conflict-of-interest against themselves here because the better they are in providing ongoing support (hardware upgrades) to their fleet of existing Mac Pros, the more that that customer can defer buying a new Mac (hardware replacement lifecycle) which reduces sales. However, this point also merits some consideration of the interplay between short term and long term interests .. the cliché is how the sum of replacement parts for an automobile can cost more than a new car. Again, even if it isn't particularly profitable for Apple to provide such ongoing hardware upgrades, there's also that marketing/prestige factor, as well as being a strategy to build customer loyalty. For example, Mike Valentine (of radar detector fame) sells the V-1 and part of his marketing is that any customer can return their existing one to have it upgraded to the latest version ... which results in recurring sales and a customer that's less likely to defect to the competition.

    Moving on ...

    On who's the right/wrong/?? customer for the Mac Pro.

    First, a lot is going to depend on what Apple decides to do, which ultimately boils down to features & price. If they make the minimum buy-in too high, they're going to drive candidates to other solutions.

    Second, there is a valid point in the observation of "buying something that I'm not going to use", as a value paradigm. To this end, the externalities of the cheesegrater cMP was essentially that the 'cost' was primarily a physically big & heavy box. And this can be seen with the parallels to the G4 PowerMac vs Cube: in a nutshell, the customer base wasn't willing to sacrifice expandability potential for a smaller size when it was at the ~same MSRP: the perennial question here would have been "how much cheaper would the Cube needed to have been in order to sell?".

    Overall, I see the potential for this same pitfall in the iMac Pro versus future mMP: the iMac Pro at $5K offers a nice display at the cost of expandability potential, whereas the mMP deletes the display but (presumably) will do well in the expandability department ... so just what will the market (ie, customer) determine as the correct price point for it? Naturally, the more divergent that Apple chooses to make the configurations (especially the minimum configs), the harder it will be for customers to decide between the two.

    Finally, let's not completely forget another aspect of Apple's history, which is of special edition "Anniversary" Macs. These have usually ended up being beautiful but ultimately underpowered & overpriced pieces of art ...

    -hh
     

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