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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by steve knight, Feb 3, 2017.
The thought of "Germany first" makes some in power uncomfortably because of their past. It's ingrained in the minds, for the longest time no one flew a German flag, that was until the World Cup.
Yes it is, he left a fence on the other side that undocumented visitors can use to get in...
I love it. Political satire at its finest.
Trump's lackeys could learn a thing or two about how to make a political statement from the Germans. And I don't mean start calling Trump: Fuhrer.
Well of course the Germans put up a wall & barbed wire; they're experts at it.
They are also experts at dismantling them peacefully.
But yes, as satire, that is seriously funny.
I don't think that Germany (or a reference) and "peacefully" can really be in the same sentence, when analyzing history and attitude.
Oh, come on: Your post is much too broad a brush stroke, especially if the topic is the construction - and dismantling - of "walls", and citing Germany as an example, or reference.
The Berlin Wall was dismantled peacefully, although it was conceived in fear and paranoia. (A fear of "let's keep our people in, rather than exclude theirs, or keep theirs out" but an action motivated by fear, nonetheless).
You mentioned the internment of the Japanese in another thread - and that fearsomely xenophobic and viciously intolerant judgmental witch-burning strain is clearly an integral part of the cultural and political DNA of the United States.
But, so, too, is the world of Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, Rosa Parkes, and Martin Luther King and countless others; that, also, is an integral part of the cultural and psychological DNA of the US.
So, let us try for some nuance. Given 20th century history, I would argue that Germans are more than usually well qualified to satirise walls, both the making - and the unmaking - of same.
Absolutely, I am generalizing, but it's stronger than me. Whenever I think of Germany in terms of world affairs I can't refrain from seeing this idiot that due to his stupid ideas developed since the 1880's destroyed Europe, caused two world wars, caused massive casualties, and ultimately destroyed an already frail order. And I see frau Merkel as this guy below. Beware of Germany, they are very patient...
Well, the wall was built more out of geopolitical forces than paranoia I would say but yes, gladly when grand pappy the Soviet Union couldn't handle the wall, the Italian journalist Riccardo Ehrman made a mistake that made everyone believe that it was time to destroy it.
(sorry for the quick answer, gotta go!)
Or Italy for that matter.
Meh with the exception of this guy that actually botched a stupid invasion of Greece, it's not that Italy did much on the worldwide geopolitical arena, at least not as a war machine. Some colonialism, but seriously very meek stuff compared to Germany, or even the UK.
I see, so your former country was just incompetently violent, fascistic, and tyrannical?
Did they raise taxes to pay for it?
no they got little Mexico to pay for it.
Ok well if we need to get into all this detail (which always adds so much to the satire) that wall was constructed by the Soviets. The walls and barbed wire constructed by the Germans were for much more evil intent.
And the Allies "dismantled" those, with the exceptions of the ones left up for historical purposes.
In 1989, it was Germans who opened - and set in motion the dismantling of - the wall.
And, - granted, while the Soviet Union approved, heartily - it was Germans who built the original wall, mainly to try to put an end to the haemorrhaging of their own population to the western part of Germany.
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But when discussing nineteenth century history, I would not cite Count von Schlieffen as the key, or main, influence.
Other models and examples counted for much more, to my mind: There was Count von Bismarck, who introduced the concept of short, sharp but - and this is key - limited wars, fought for a specific - and limited - purpose, wars fought for a re-adjustment of scales, and where one's goals were also limited.
Unlimited warfare would have struck him as the height of military, economic and political lunacy.
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Good God, man. Concentration camps. They put up walls and barbed wire at concentration camps. Verstehen? Geez.
Yes, I taught 19th and 20th century European history for a living at university (actually, universities, including some that long predate the founding of the USA). So, yes, I do know. And understand. And I have visited a number of these places.
But, I also know that this is not the full - or the only - story. Or picture.
This thread started with a reference to a German joke about walls around a model of the United States.
And was followed up with references to walls in German history.
Two things: Anti-Semitism wasn't confined to Germany - many of its most ardent enthusiasts came from what is now eastern Europe, and the word 'pogrom' has Russian roots, not German.
Yes, the Germans gave us the full might of a modern industrial state that harnessed its resources - of bureaucracy, industry, public relations, - towards mass murder and genocide.
But these are not the only walls Germans built - or dismantled. And that was my point.
How about these guys?
Well, lol... yeah it was pretty incompetent in its violence and tyranny, that's why it didn't really lasted long, especially on the European scene.
Well, we both enjoy history - although I will never reach your level of knowledge - and we both know that history doesn't repeat itself, at least on the factual. I don't expect Germany to go over Belgium in order to take over France and then the rest of Europe. However, history is cyclical in its conceptuality because of the characters of the nations. While Italy has always been centered over the peninsula, Germany always had its eyes towards European hegemony. So, no a small country - like Belgium - will not be attacked by German troops, but Germany already tried to step over the political power of smaller nations - see Greece, and even Italy.
There is no doubt that we're on the brink of a situation similar to WWI, that is not in military order, but in political order.
Germany is the most powerful force in Europe (economically, politically)
Other countries are in serious trouble (Italy, Greece, Spain ,etc ) and changing their own internal order
There is a huge traumatic switch in global (that is, Western) perception
The last point is the most important for what is happening, and what will happen. People now distrust the media. The proof? 2016. Just to name three among the others:
Brexit: everyone was sure of the Remain... media was pushing for the Remain, both in UK and around the world, with very few exception (Daily Express and The Sun, not really loved)
Trump: No need for analysis here as we discuss Trump ad nauseam, but for the purposes of this post just keep in mind that all of Hollywood, CNN, DNC, parts of GOP, Thousands of Non profits, and 52 important daily newspapers (out of 54) endorsed Hillary.
Italy's referendum: Almost everyone in the press was sure for the Yes... and the No won, causing a constitutional crisis which is carrying over to the financial world now, changing the balance of the EU-Italy relationship.
This is VERY important because it shows that the previous order completely disappeared in 2016, and all the media efforts will NOT stop the trend that now is reducing governments to revaluate themselves.
The German cover shows to me that the establishment - especially in Germany - is not taking the challenge seriously, they think they're still relevant. A good tweet (or a hashtag campaign) is way more significant than any cover a magazine can design. The magazine will sell more, but it won't condition people as it used to be.
Another example is the law that is discussed in Italy - proposed by minister Boldrini - after the referendum which will make illegal publishing 'fake' news. Needless to say, the government will decide what is true and what is not, that is... there will be only one point of view. In the age in which we are, this is political suicide. We moved from an era in which an opinion was an opinion piece approved by a board of editors and published in the last page of a newspaper, to an era in which all opinions matter and all opinions are published - and listened to - instantly. And same goes for a tweet; why do you think that Trump trolls the media?
The order - similar to the early XX century monarchy - is now in scramble. Do you think that Germany - with its historical baggage - will stay put and watch ?
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Lol, well the pope said to build bridges... as long as they're outside his walls I guess
They are also experts in destroying their borders language and culture my tolerating the flood of immigrants into their land. Markel has invaded her own country.
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ya it seems to have come and gone a few times.