War of the Wombs

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, Jul 6, 2012.

?

I support Personhood USA's goal to protect all fetuses with personhood..

Poll closed Jan 2, 2013.
  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    11.3%
  2. No

    53 vote(s)
    85.5%
  3. Undecided

    2 vote(s)
    3.2%
  1. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #1
    Newsweek: War of the Wombs profiles the organization "Personhood USA" a Pro-Life group whose stated goals is to pass a law stating that all fetuses will be regarded as federally constitutional people. This is one of the craziest things I've ever heard.

    I'm sorry but cell clusters should not be granted the rights of people primarily because they are not physically independent viable individuals. You can't give the fetus full rights without taking away the rights of the mother. It's a flawed premise that illustrates how dangerous religion and religious beliefs can become.
     
  2. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #2
    Hell NO.

    Not all cell clusters need to reach fruition, just to satisfy the need for bodies to feed a failing system.
     
  3. HarryPot macrumors 6502a

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    #3
    At some point you need to give priority to the rights of the fetus than to the rights of the mother.

    You say it is until the fetus can survive by itself. Which is around 20-24 weeks? Some people say it is around 8-10 weeks, when the fetus starts to develop mental activity. Some say the rights should be given since the beginning.

    I agree that you disagree with the idea of giving a fetus legal rights, but I don't see how it is a flawed premise.
     
  4. Huntn thread starter macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #4

    The mother is a person. The fetus is completely dependent on the mother for life. Why should the fetus get more priority than a functional person?

    Pull a fetus out of mother at 8-10 weeks and see how long it survives. Without a petri-dish and hard core technological intervention it won't last more than a few minutes. That is why the premise is flawed.
     
  5. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #5
    No I don't. I need not do anything of the sort.

    Whatever gave you that idea??
     
  6. HarryPot macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    Not if you consider the fetus a human being, a homo sapiens. Which is the great discussion. What makes a homo sapiens? Is it life independence? Mental activity? The potential of being a born human being?

    I personally feel that the rights of the mother get limited when she previously, with reasoning and pre-meditation, decided to have sex. Doesn't the mother gets to have some responsibility for her actions? I know, it's completely her decision wether to have a baby or not, but that decision was kind of made before pregnancy, when she decided to have sex, which frequently comes for having unprotected sex.

    For sake of argument, let's keep the cases of rape, mothers health and the eventual "condom fail" situations outside.
     
  7. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #7
    No. They go too far.

    Besides, the planet has a population problem. We need to start re-thinking our morality in light of our resources.
     
  8. HarryPot macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    Huntn implied it with his comment. A fetus is independent of the mother help once it is 5-6 months of age. So, I suppose he means at that point the fetus should have the right to live.

    But you are free to think whatever you want. If you agree with aborting 6 month old fetuses, and the law permits it, go ahead. You just need to realize some people (around 40-50%? in the US) are against it, and they will be vocal about it.

    ----------

    But, wouldn't the moral thing to do is start having a more responsible sexual life?

    In my opinion, abortion shouldn't be by any means seen as a "population control" option.
     
  9. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #9
    See it how you like. It is what it is. One less person on the planet.

    Having a responsible sex life doesn't mean we won't be overpopulated either. What's morality anyway, beside a current social trend you've bought into.

    Perhaps the point is moot now anyway. We've probably bred too much already and spent too many years politicising, warring and begging invisible men in the sky for riches to have taken the problem seriously.
     
  10. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #10
    What drivel is this??

    Pop the little bugger out at the end of the second trimester, and it will suffocate due to underdeveloped lung capacity.

    You would do well to Google some of this stuff you know.
     
  11. Scepticalscribe, Jul 6, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #11
    Yes, surprise, surprise, shock, horror. An adult female is actually a human being, however shocking and inexplicable that may seem to some, not merely a womb, foetus carrier, and strolling pair of breasts.

    Bless you for a sane, sensible intelligent post.

    Here we have it in an extraordinary - and unusually succinctly expressed - nutshell. Good grief; the "rights of the mother get limited....when [she] decided to have sex" (what an appalling, utterly sickeningly appalling, mindset; and, worse, still, so extremely revealing of the usual ugly and vicious misogynist attitudes towards women). So, as usual, women are to be punished for having sex, especially for choosing to have sex without permission, for choosing with whom they might have sex, again without seeking prior approval......

    I have long thought that much of the debate about abortion - and much of the borrowed vehemence and vicious virulence of the tone used towards women who choose to have (or enjoy) a sexually active life/lifestyle - is about control, and above all, control, fear and hatred of, of female sexuality. So, here we have it explicitly expressed; women who choose to have sex should have more limited rights than any pregnancy which they may carry.

    Actually, I never cease to be astonished (and appalled) at the really nasty, judgmental and vindictive tone used towards sexually active women - along with the absolute certitude and assumption of the right to cast judgment on them - by posters such as yourself.

    Re the other matters raised in your post, areas which you labelled "[doesn't the mother get]some responsibility"[ for her actions?] "when she decided to have sex".......we are back to the old reliables, access to safe, free (or affordable) contraception......which, in itself, as the recent disgraceful and dreadful harmony between the Vatican and elements of the Islamic faith re UN funding of access to birth control for women (which this dreadful coalition of conservation clerical interests sought to deny) in areas of the Third World all too clearly demonstrates is still an explosive issue.

    Unfortunately, in much of the world, contraception is not an affordable luxury, still less a right, or an optional extra; what the OP is missing is the fact that very often, even in this area, women do not have a choice. And, if such a mindset is allowed to prevail, worse still, such rights will remain limited and out of reach to large numbers of women throughout the world.
     
  12. HarryPot macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    I should have said "independent of the mother". It obviously needs medical help once outside.

    Maybe you should have used some common sense. Seeing how we were talking about the mother and the fetus necessity of her.
     
  13. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #13
    Well said.

    And, oh, should have echoed both your good self and huntn with a loud, "hell, no, absolutely not" in a belated response to the question raised by the OP.
     
  14. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #14
    Please, you'll swell my head. And lord knows we already have a heavy population of "those types" at the moment.

    "It"!!!! Fail.

    In these situations, medical help costs are on the order of $100,000 up.

    This is far removed from squatting in a field, and dropping a full-term child.
     
  15. HarryPot macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    OK, I get it. You are appalled. Sickeningly appalled.

    I really don't get what is the point of a discussion were people obviously don't want to hear the point of view of the other side.

    It appears to me some liberals would be happy in a country were nothing but their beliefs be accepted, even more, that nothing outside their beliefs could be even commented.

    Didn't you read the part were I said "I personally feel..."? Were did I ever made a judgment? Did I ever said women that had abortions were awful, ugly, etc. etc. etc. people?
     
  16. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #16
    Isn't it time for our usual "Men Aren't Allowed To Discuss This!" post?
     
  17. HarryPot macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    I guess Huntn will need to come and say what he meant with
    But whatever was his meaning, that still doesn't change what I said. So no, it's not "FAIL".
     
  18. Big-TDI-Guy macrumors 68030

    Big-TDI-Guy

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    #18
    If clusters of cells are counted as people - forget about Hitler, because I've unleashed far more genocide since I was 16 then he could ever dream of.

    Who would have guessed that mass murder could feel so good?
     
  19. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #19
    Oops. Of course!

    As usual, a bunch of men trying to dictate what women should do with their bodies. :cool:
     
  20. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #20
    No, I am appalled at your condescending, patronising, insulting and profoundly offensive tone towards women in general (and myself, but that - while revealing - is merely beside the point). You deny the right of women to the rights of human beings. You deny their humanity. Your arguments are not arguments, merely offensively expressed opinions.

    You don't debate; you insult, and take delight in so doing - so yes, I express revulsion at the casual and contemptuous assumption expressed by (some) males that women should not enjoy full human rights.

    No. I never said that "men shouldn't be allowed discuss this". Of course they can discuss this.

    I do, however, take issue with, and take enormous umbrage at the idea that men should deny women full human rights, and should deny women the right to decide what to do on such matters. Above all, I take issue with the idea that men should sit in judgement on women on this matter; (with such contemptuous, arrogant, heartless, pitiless, hateful and horrible comments). Walk a mile in our shoes, and then tell us what it is like.
     
  21. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #21
    The thing is this goes hand in hand with no birth control and no help to take care of all those unwanted babies.

    So if the fetus will kill the mother and she can't use birth control she just has been handed a death sentence even if she is married.
     
  22. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #22
    I did read this. But I dispute your assertion that "the rights of the 'mother' get limited" (and that is what you wrote) "when she decided to have sex". I have rarely read a more misogynistic post on these threads.
     
  23. MorphingDragon macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

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    #23
    Red weed in War of the Worlds explodes with growth in contact with water and glows purple at night.

    How far do you want to take this? ;)
     
  24. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

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    #24
    I really wasn't trying to take a dig at you or anyone else who has posted in this thread. I have noticed in every single other forum that touches on this issue, someone posts exactly that. "Everyone with a penis, please leave this thread!"
     
  25. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #25
    Quote that from another thread if you can. I'd love to see it.
     

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