was it Muslims?

jkcerda

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http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Documented civilian deaths from violence
120,268 – 133,201
Total violent deaths including combatants
184,000
184,000 dead & 120-133k of those were CIVILIANS.

just a little food for thought , I have no problems supporting the troops, but there are times when you need to pull your head out of ****you're***** rear end and ask ****you're*** self if we are doing the right thing.
 

citizenzen

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Mar 22, 2010
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... I have no problems supporting the troops ...
I "support the troops" in the sense that I support the person who is ordered into battle. I support them because we know that they not only put their life on the line at that moment, but they also put their mental and physical well-being at risk well after the fighting is over. I support giving that person the best opportunity to live a healthy and normal life despite the circumstances that as a soldier, they may be put through.

But I don't support militarism. I don't support using warfare and aggression to solve social and political problems. I don't support the (IMO) inordinate focus, money and adulation that we shower on our military.
 

Zombie Acorn

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Blowing up people because jesus wants you to is entirely different than dropping a bomb to end a war.

So I propose a second list:

Beheading gay & lesbian couples? Was it the muslims? yes.

Iran:

4,000 lesbians and gays have been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Methods of execution include; beheading, chopped in two, stoning to death, burning alive, and being thrown alive from a high building.

Makes the gay issues in the US sound like a honeymoon paradise.


Killing your family, especially women, when they don't do what you want? yes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/muslim-community-grapples-with-shafia-verdict-1.1150020

In Arizona: Yusra Farhan was convicted and sentenced for tying her 20-year-old daughter to a bed with rope and a padlock and burning her face with a hot spoon when she refused to marry a man nearly 20 years her senior. The girl’s father and sister were also arrested for their complicity.

In California: Kassim Alhimidi was charged with the murder of his wife, Shaima Alawadi. While police initially believed the case to be a hate crime, investigators uncovered the fact that Alhimidi had plans to send his daughter to Iraq to marry a cousin, and that Shaima intended to divorce him. The case is now being characterized as an honor killing.

In Toronto: Peer Khairi was convicted of second-degree murder in the brutal stabbing death of his wife, Randjida. The trial heard that the killing was honor-based: Khairi was enraged over Randjida’s “disobedience” and her acceptance of their children’s Western attitudes to clothing and dating.

In Edmonton: Muhammad Rafi and Najma Khokhar were arrested and charged with assaulting and forcibly confining their 21-year-old daughter after she refused to be taken abroad to submit to a forced marriage.

Treating women like garbage? yes.

http://www.rferl.org/content/pakistan_girls_school/3537392.html

Islamic militants -- who believe women should not be educated -- have so far destroyed more than 700 schools in the Swat, Buner, Dir, and Peshawar districts and the tribal agencies of Bajaur and Mohmand.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zanzibartanzania/10232580/Zanzibar-acid-attack-finger-pointed-at-radical-Islamic-group-as-five-questioned-over-assault-on-British-teenagers.html

Religious leaders on the Indian Ocean island believe the two men who threw acid over teenagers Kirstie Trup and Katie Gee may be followers of Uamsho, which wants Zanzibar to become independent of mainland Tanzania and impose stricter Muslim rules.
Blowing up people/buildings in the name of your religion? yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314466/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Boston-Marathon-bombers-texts-reveal-ready-sacrifice-life-jihad.html


Just got to love what religion can motivate these days. :eek:
 

Michael Goff

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Jul 5, 2012
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Blowing up people because jesus wants you to is entirely different than dropping a bomb to end a war.

So I propose a second list:

Beheading gay & lesbian couples? Was it the muslims? yes.

Iran:

4,000 lesbians and gays have been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Methods of execution include; beheading, chopped in two, stoning to death, burning alive, and being thrown alive from a high building.

Makes the gay issues in the US sound like a honeymoon paradise.


Killing your family, especially women, when they don't do what you want? yes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/muslim-community-grapples-with-shafia-verdict-1.1150020

In Arizona: Yusra Farhan was convicted and sentenced for tying her 20-year-old daughter to a bed with rope and a padlock and burning her face with a hot spoon when she refused to marry a man nearly 20 years her senior. The girl’s father and sister were also arrested for their complicity.

In California: Kassim Alhimidi was charged with the murder of his wife, Shaima Alawadi. While police initially believed the case to be a hate crime, investigators uncovered the fact that Alhimidi had plans to send his daughter to Iraq to marry a cousin, and that Shaima intended to divorce him. The case is now being characterized as an honor killing.

In Toronto: Peer Khairi was convicted of second-degree murder in the brutal stabbing death of his wife, Randjida. The trial heard that the killing was honor-based: Khairi was enraged over Randjida’s “disobedience” and her acceptance of their children’s Western attitudes to clothing and dating.

In Edmonton: Muhammad Rafi and Najma Khokhar were arrested and charged with assaulting and forcibly confining their 21-year-old daughter after she refused to be taken abroad to submit to a forced marriage.

Treating women like garbage? yes.

http://www.rferl.org/content/pakistan_girls_school/3537392.html



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zanzibartanzania/10232580/Zanzibar-acid-attack-finger-pointed-at-radical-Islamic-group-as-five-questioned-over-assault-on-British-teenagers.html



Blowing up people/buildings in the name of your religion? yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314466/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Boston-Marathon-bombers-texts-reveal-ready-sacrifice-life-jihad.html


Just got to love what religion can motivate these days. :eek:
We should have known that if anyone would come in here with a reason to hate Islam, it'd be our resident Islam-hater ZA.
 

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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Nice turn, so now that many on that list are now thought of as atrocities - how does that vindicate radical muslim behavior? No way does it justify it, so the answer is really bs imho.
 

Michael Goff

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Nice turn, so now that many on that list are now thought of as atrocities - how does that vindicate radical muslim behavior? No way does it justify it, so the answer is really bs imho.
Well, I wouldn't say he's justifying it. I would say he's attacking the stereotype about "Islam = terrorism", one that seems to be prevalent these days. There seems to be, like he points out, a double standard. I would imagine if you went through life hearing how your religion is a terroristic religion, you might get upset and point to the fact that yours isn't the only one.
 

VulchR

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Jun 8, 2009
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....
if you remove the religious aspect of it, is killing 120-133,000 civilians "acceptable" to you?
I wonder what proportion of the people killed in Iraq were killed by armed groups whose membership (and whose targets) were determined by religious affiliation.... Something to think about before before becoming indignant and angry, particularly in light of what is currently going on in Syria, where nearly the same number of people have died without US armed forces taking part. FWIW I think the 2nd Iraq war was a mistake, and I oppose the use of drones by the US. However, I blame extremists for the civilian causalities as much as I do the failed US policy. After all, this war is precisely what the extremists wanted back then and what they want to continue now.

EDIT: I need to make clear that I do not equate extremists and Muslims. There are extremists in every large group of people.
 
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jkcerda

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Nice turn, so now that many on that list are now thought of as atrocities - how does that vindicate radical muslim behavior? No way does it justify it, so the answer is really bs imho.
Well, I wouldn't say he's justifying it. I would say he's attacking the stereotype about "Islam = terrorism", one that seems to be prevalent these days. There seems to be, like he points out, a double standard. I would imagine if you went through life hearing how your religion is a terroristic religion, you might get upset and point to the fact that yours isn't the only one.
 

stubeeef

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Well, I wouldn't say he's justifying it. I would say he's attacking the stereotype about "Islam = terrorism", one that seems to be prevalent these days. There seems to be, like he points out, a double standard. I would imagine if you went through life hearing how your religion is a terroristic religion, you might get upset and point to the fact that yours isn't the only one.
As a Christian I do feel my religion is called terroristic although I have no desires to commit a suicide bombing because of it. And yes there are good and bad of all races and religions-Nazi's using Christianity, Radicals using the Muslim faith are easy examples-but as the Nazi's needed stopping so do the Radicals. There are many muslims trying to do that-we need to help them-Iran is a good example of us failing to help. Many in the muslim world have lost faith in the US for many good reasons-inept action, and lack of action. Those are not reasons to excuse radical muslims from terrorist acts. So again, it was a nice turn on things but doesn't excuse the present day scenario imho.

And some of his numbers are for effect only, no basis I can find except shock value. Ex. 100 million american indians.
 
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Michael Goff

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As a Christian I do feel my religion is called terroristic although I have no desires to commit a suicide bombing because of it. And yes there are good and bad of all races and religions-Nazi's using Christianity, Radicals using the Muslim faith are easy examples-but as the Nazi's needed stopping so do the Radicals. There are many muslims trying to do that-we need to help them-Iran is a good example of us failing to help. Many in the muslim world have lost faith in the US for many good reasons-inept action, and lack of action. Those are not reasons to excuse radical muslims from terrorist acts. So again, it was a nice turn on things but doesn't excuse the present day scenario imho.
When has a Christian been treated differently in a negative way by law enforcement agencies because he's a Christian? Bonus points if it's within the last ten years.

And no, radical Islamic government cracking down on Christians doesn't count. Because the types of things that I'm talking about happen in governments that are supposedly secular.
 

NT1440

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May 18, 2008
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Blowing up people because jesus wants you to is entirely different than dropping a bomb to end a war.

So I propose a second list:

Beheading gay & lesbian couples? Was it the muslims? yes.

Iran:

4,000 lesbians and gays have been executed since the 1979 Islamic revolution. Methods of execution include; beheading, chopped in two, stoning to death, burning alive, and being thrown alive from a high building.

Makes the gay issues in the US sound like a honeymoon paradise.


Killing your family, especially women, when they don't do what you want? yes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/muslim-community-grapples-with-shafia-verdict-1.1150020
Iranian students before 1979

In Arizona: Yusra Farhan was convicted and sentenced for tying her 20-year-old daughter to a bed with rope and a padlock and burning her face with a hot spoon when she refused to marry a man nearly 20 years her senior. The girl’s father and sister were also arrested for their complicity.

In California: Kassim Alhimidi was charged with the murder of his wife, Shaima Alawadi. While police initially believed the case to be a hate crime, investigators uncovered the fact that Alhimidi had plans to send his daughter to Iraq to marry a cousin, and that Shaima intended to divorce him. The case is now being characterized as an honor killing.

In Toronto: Peer Khairi was convicted of second-degree murder in the brutal stabbing death of his wife, Randjida. The trial heard that the killing was honor-based: Khairi was enraged over Randjida’s “disobedience” and her acceptance of their children’s Western attitudes to clothing and dating.

In Edmonton: Muhammad Rafi and Najma Khokhar were arrested and charged with assaulting and forcibly confining their 21-year-old daughter after she refused to be taken abroad to submit to a forced marriage.

Treating women like garbage? yes.

http://www.rferl.org/content/pakistan_girls_school/3537392.html



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/zanzibartanzania/10232580/Zanzibar-acid-attack-finger-pointed-at-radical-Islamic-group-as-five-questioned-over-assault-on-British-teenagers.html



Blowing up people/buildings in the name of your religion? yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314466/Tamerlan-Tsarnaev-Boston-Marathon-bombers-texts-reveal-ready-sacrifice-life-jihad.html


Just got to love what religion can motivate these days. :eek:
Gee, maybe if we hadn't overthrown their democratically elected government the Middle East would be a different place.



Some of the worlds most oppressive regimes came into power only after the USA decided to overthrow the government of a nation that posed no threat to us.

Surprise, radicalism results from oppression, who the hell knew? :rolleyes:
 

jkcerda

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Gee, maybe if we hadn't overthrown their democratically elected government the Middle East would be a different place.

Image

Some of the worlds most oppressive regimes came into power only after the USA decided to overthrow the government of a nation that posed no threat to us.

Surprise, radicalism results from oppression, who the hell knew? :rolleyes:
Muslim brotherhood taking over Libya was a step back into the stone age.

 

NT1440

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Muslim brotherhood taking over Libya was a step back into the stone age.

Image
I agree. That said there was no reason why WE should have destroyed the massive water infrastructure project that was a lifeline to the country. I'll try to dig up the article but its something that NO mainstream news covered.

Also, who put Ghadaffi there? ;)

We have a century of oppression to answer for, and what we're seeing now throughout the world is the collapse of the American empire plans from the 50's back. House of Cards.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/libyas-water-wars-and-gaddafis-great-man-made-river-project/5334868

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/

As usual our "humanitarian" wars are actually fueled by geopolitical control.

Just look at who gets the contracts to rebuild everything we destroy.
 

jkcerda

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I agree. That said there was no reason why WE should have destroyed the massive water infrastructure project that was a lifeline to the country. I'll try to dig up the article but its something that NO mainstream news covered.

Also, who put Ghadaffi there? ;)

We have a century of oppression to answer for, and what we're seeing now throughout the world is the collapse of the American empire plans from the 50's back. House of Cards.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/libyas-water-wars-and-gaddafis-great-man-made-river-project/5334868

http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/27/great-man-made-river-nato-bombs/

As usual our "humanitarian" wars are actually fueled by geopolitical control.

Just look at who gets the contracts to rebuild everything we destroy.
hell, we had established diplomatic relations with him back in 06 IIRC.
 

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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When has a Christian been treated differently in a negative way by law enforcement agencies because he's a Christian? Bonus points if it's within the last ten years.

And no, radical Islamic government cracking down on Christians doesn't count. Because the types of things that I'm talking about happen in governments that are supposedly secular.
In its attempt to accommodate Muslim students' religious needs, a Maryland high school now allows those students who have parental permission and good grades to leave class every day to pray.
link
Texas City— A Texas City middle school student has found himself at odds with a dress code which prohibits necklaces that look like rosary beads.
"I think it’s not fair that they won’t let me wear it," said Christian Thompson, an 8th grade student at Blocker Middle School
link

Was it muslims?
 

quagmire

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Apr 19, 2004
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Muslim brotherhood taking over Libya was a step back into the stone age.

Image
Are you trying to say the Libyan people were better off with that dictator?

And even if the US didn't get involved in Libya, it would still be looking the way it is in that American democracy picture.....
 

stubeeef

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Aug 10, 2004
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Really... that's what you call law enforcement? A dress code? Seriously, that has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever read as a response.
No, its a fast example of how we Christians feel that others are against us, I don't have time as I have to go and pick up my cat from emerg work this morning then a 2:30 meeting-be back tonight-have fun.
 

jkcerda

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Are you trying to say the Libyan people were better off with that dictator?

And even if the US didn't get involved in Libya, it would still be looking the way it is in that American democracy picture.....
I am saying we had NO BUSINESS getting involved there, we have NO BUSINESS in Syria either.

thanks to the U.S, the Muslim brotherhood took over Libya, that was a great plan there :mad:
 

LadyX

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Mar 4, 2012
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Blowing up people because jesus wants you to is entirely different than dropping a bomb to end a war.

So using a massive atomic weapon and killing over 250,000 people is okay now??


Yes there are Muslims who have done terrible things, but don't generalize, not all are like that. I can give you as many examples with links to articles from the BBC, CNN, etc. where non-Muslims have done similar things. Here's one for instance: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/07/us/illinois-child-killing/
 
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NT1440

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hell, we had established diplomatic relations with him back in 06 IIRC.
http://www.juancole.com/2011/09/qaddafi-was-a-cia-asset.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/03/libya-cia-gaddafi-intelligence_n_947764.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/04/mark-allen-mi6-libya-profile

We helped him take power in the late 60's, then relations soured (as they always do with the regimes we put in power) and then we warmed to him again. We rendered people there secretly in the early 2000's, then when it became clear that his people were not going to tolerate his leadership anymore, we overthrew.

It's amazing how many times this exact scenario has been played out throughout our history. We help the "good guys", give them money, weapons, power and ignore their brutal methods until the region becomes too unstable to continue, then we turn.

Saddam, Ghadafi, Bin Laden, Iran, Malaysia, Pinochet, etc.

It's amazing that our war mongers have been in power so long that they have to overthrow the very people they installed, but we never question our guys.



ProTip: If the USA is rallying for war against a dictator, go back a few decades and see who put him in power. The consistency in this tactic is overwhelming.
 

jkcerda

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http://www.juancole.com/2011/09/qaddafi-was-a-cia-asset.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/03/libya-cia-gaddafi-intelligence_n_947764.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/04/mark-allen-mi6-libya-profile

We helped him take power in the late 60's, then relations soured (as they always do with the regimes we put in power) and then we warmed to him again. We rendered people there secretly in the early 2000's, then when it became clear that his people were not going to tolerate his leadership anymore, we overthrew.

It's amazing how many times this exact scenario has been played out throughout our history. We help the "good guys", give them money, weapons, power and ignore their brutal methods until the region becomes too unstable to continue, then we turn.

Saddam, Ghadafi, Bin Laden, Iran, Malaysia, Pinochet, etc.

It's amazing that our war mongers have been in power so long that they have to overthrow the very people they installed, but we never question our guys.

Image

ProTip: If the USA is rallying for war against a dictator, go back a few decades and see who put him in power. The consistency in this tactic is overwhelming.
EXACTLY, nothing but one mess after the other.
 

quagmire

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Apr 19, 2004
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I am saying we had NO BUSINESS getting involved there, we have NO BUSINESS in Syria either.

thanks to the U.S, the Muslim brotherhood took over Libya, that was a great plan there :mad:
They would have taken over anyway.