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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by stubeeef, Mar 28, 2006.
No commentary on the riots in France?
Yeah, it's a real shame that this kind of stuff doesn't happen in the US as often is does in other countries...
From what I read it purtains to laws that will allow employers to hire and fire "young" people until they're about 26.
here's the CNN link:
i believe they're rioting against non-descriptive thread titles.
God I've been watching too much That 70's Show lately.
Need to talk about it, stu? By all means let's have a thread about serious issues outside of the US. Or is this just your way of bashing the French because none of the major players support Bush?
sometimes when none of "us" bring up a particular issue which stu thinks makes us hypocrites, he'll bring it up in an accusatory fashion. this isn't about having a discussion of the riots, it's about making "us" look bad.
Very, gop always goes back to clinton-esk of ya don't you think?
Sore spot me sees here.
Yes Solvs, the French situation is obviously a direct result of 7 degrees from W!
Shall we explore the situation, we love to hack our own situation, let the french chime in, or maybe the local pundits can shine their pointy lights on it to educate us.
thanks for proving my point.
solvs <> sayhey.
Yeah, I was reading the BBC web page and it mentioned their news crew had come under attack, and I had this "dark humor" moment- What if the crew had just come back from Iraq and was happy to be back in a nice safe place like Paris...
European labor laws make it hard to fire people, which leads to structural high employment. I don't know exactly how they hope to fix this problem, and its hard to tell if this CPE law is a step in the right or wrong direction.
Over 1 million people riot/protest over a political situation that focuses on the implications of a protectionist economy, fairly thought of as moderately socialist, and not a comment about it.
The government was trying to inact the law/policy to make business more likely to hire younger workers, they seem to have a fairly high unemployement rate, and lots of directed anger.
I think this is significant in that it highlights one of the differences between a socialist model and the capitalist model.
Many on this forum tout their socialist leaning, and yet don't mention 1,000,000 people rioting in country with roughly twice the population of California. As a percentage it is like 5 million rioting in the US, or twice the entire population of Chicago rioting.
While all government models have flaws and weak points, I believe that this shows one of the problems with socialism. But hey, I hear the dixie chicks hate W! Or more important, iTunes may even dump france.
What's your opinion stu?
First off, the French are well known for their strikes and demonstrations, you could almost say it's an integral part of life and is somewhat encouraged as it's a way of diffusing tensions. There's nothing radical or earth shattering about the demonstrations themselves, but it could indicate that another generation of soixante huitards is in the making given the generational differences of this demonstration.
The French bureaucracy is truly amazing and I don't know if it has a parallel anywhere else. Italy maybe? Greece?
France is facing the same low birthrate as other industrialized countries although it's not as pronounced as in Italy or Greece or even Spain. So what that means is that you have a bunch of old farts who don't have long to go before they start collecting some pretty healthy pensions. The last thing they want is change.Nothing surprising there, we've seen something similar here in the US. NASA is a prime example of a lack of new blood and the lack of risk taking due to it being inundated with old white guys.
Other European countries have similarly restrictive policies regarding when you can fire someone without reason. One of Merkel's biggest challenges in Germany will be to loosen restrictions on firing in order to increase employment without creating a burden for the social welfare system. Job advertisements in Germany often clearly state they are only interested in someone under the age of 30. Anyone younger, not enough experience, anyone older, too expensive when it comes to tax rates and salaries. I would imagine the situation in France is similar.
The French have one of the best if not the best, health care systems in the world. their pension system is ecxellent and job security is exactly that. They have very low rates of obesity and crime rates are also low. Housing is affordable in most areas.
The French are doing a lot of things right but the system hasn't adapted enough over time to changing demographics and economic models. Neither Chirac nor Sarkozy seems able to deal with the political realities. Chirac clearly needs to go and the fact that Sarkozy isn't a product of the Ecole Nationale d'Administration gives hope that he won't be as beholden to the status quo but that remains to be seen.
I think the french do a lot right, including some of the health care and their education system. As an American I envy most everyones education system.
I find it ironic that a law proposed to increase work opportunities is rebelled by those it is intended to help. The only reason to rebel is because you have too much to lose. So they either are on a government supplement that will eventually no longer support itself, or the pension from working the fry machine is just to much to miss out on.
While a more capitalist model would focus more on growth (good and bad) it may not protect the population as a Social Security type system (only a funded one with a pit more $$ for the bottom tier) would. There is a line between the two that has more merit than either on their own. While I believe in a safety net, I don't believe in Gov't inefficiency to deliver it.
The implications are vast, but Half a million protesting illegal immigration is 1/20th the size of this protest in france and yet gets zero play here (MR). That is a loud statement.
no, it's not. there are a ton of things, even bush-related, that don't get discussed here. give me a break.
as i said, it's not like you actually want to have a conversation about the riots, you just want to bash people here. it's weak and unproductive, and other than getting your jollies off, i don't know why you bother.
Well, to be blunt about it, who cares? It's not a secret that most of the discussion here is about U.S. politics. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, it's just the way it is.
What about the police state that Putin is recreating, the elections in Israel, how the massively corrupt Berlusconi has a good chance of being re-elected, the elections in the Ukraine? There are a lot of topics that don't get covered that are equally as important. If you're going to appoint yourself worldwide watchdog, please we welcome more input. Although we're generally a worldly bunch, I agree that a lot of international news doesn't reach MR. I would wager that we're all pretty concerned about the corruption and lies in our own government but that's not really a very good excuse.
Bring it on.
Angst? Or school boy fist fight invite? Chill boy.
Each of those are important subjects, and I don't believe any had 1/1000th the media attention today either. This was a particularly large and angry riot even for france.
I am highlighting the inbreed nature of discourse here. Admit or not, defensive or not, it is the elephant in the room.
Good night and Good luck.
...says the guy picking the fight. lame.
Neither of the above, simply an invitation to broaden the discourse here. You've been watching too much bush tv!
The demonstrations were relatively calm given how many participated and didn't come close to the chaos that the banlieu riots caused. Maybe you just like to sensationalize things or you simply have no idea of the history of demonstrations in France? Or, you believe the American media implicitly...
takao is about the only non US/UK/OZ/NZ/CA member that posts here regularly. We get quite a lot of insight about the EU and Austria from him but unfortunately there aren't more like him. There's nothing like a local perspective to add spice.
From an historical perspective, the political thread was started in response to the war waged on Iraq, it only makes sense that it would retain an American-centric feel.
So we're supposed to be hopping upset about an isolated protest involving an isolated controversy? Hey, while we're at it we can talk about the rare bilingual and English-only stop signs in Montréal (which are technically illegal).
If it bothers you, start a thread about it.
What not to do: start a thread pointing out that no one started a thread about it.
another link discussing the issue, which seems to bring up some important points regarding the true problems with France's economic/job market problems.
Casually-speaking, I tend to agree with the suggestion that France adopt the Danish model (it is in the article).
Okay, here's one perspective from a foreigner who used to have to hire over there.
It wouldn't have made a difference to our hiring patterns. We added people because we needed someone to do a job. That need wouldn't have been any more or less if it was easier to fire or lay off people. The situation did mean that more thought went into picking people, but it was a matter of who got the jobs, not how many.
If it was easier for people to lose their jobs, it's possible that productivity would have been higher. The complacency was palpable, but understandable. Why hustle if it doesn't change anything?
Lower productivity meant that more people had to be hired to produce the same amount of work that was done in the US, where it's much less trouble to replace underperformers.
I guess I'd have to be on the side of the protesters, though maybe for different reasons. Why mess with a policy that tends to create more jobs, if unemployment is the problem?
(I have a feeling that when the business leaders there say that they would hire more people, they really mean that they would hire more people than they need, then cherry pick to get the head count down.)
I'm still lost. I haven't heard anything about this. Can someone clarify? And stu, really- if you want to discuss a subject, just bring it up. No need to bash people for not doing it. It's called being proactive.
Done with your rant? Feel better now? It's good that you have exposed the secret socialist conspiracy of silence to protect the right-wing government of France from slander on macrumors. I just wish that as one of the more "left" members of these forums someone had let me in on the conspiracy. What's the matter guys? Did I forget to pay my dues?
Stu, if you want to discuss a topic - just post it. No one here has a veto, or wants one, over what's posted. The idea that somehow we all should be ashamed by not meeting your expectations of what should or shouldn't be discussed here is completely ludicrous. btw, I too think the topic is important and would love to hear a real analysis of the situation. Preferably from someone who can keep from mixing up right-wing Gaullists with French socialism.
Hey, what'd I do!?!
Anyway, the protest here were civil. The ones over there, which I actually didn't realize this was happening again, were not so peaceful. So maybe we should be talking about it. Maybe you could have started a thread, as mentioned. But maybe it's just that nobody cares about France.
Seriously, does anybody here care about France?