What if homosexuality was a choice?

solvs

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jun 25, 2002
5,693
1
LaLaLand, CA
So, I've been thinking (and please don't ruin my thread like you did iGary's)... what if being gay was a choice?

Personally, I don't believe it is, but let's go with the premise here. Homosexuality is a choice. So? Aren't we living in a free society where adults can make choices like that? And what if it is a sin against (the Christian) God? Again, so? Putting aside the other things that are equal, or even greater, sins listed in certain parts of the Bible such as Leviticus, since when do we base our laws on religion? I mean, just because morality and ethics often collide, that doesn't mean everything some people happen to believe has to become law. Especially considering how many don't. Some religions believe that pork, or suger, or caffeine, or even electricity is bad. Does that mean if a majority of Americans (read: American voters) were Amish they would get to tell the rest of us we couldn't use toasters or cars? I know I wouldn't like that.

So then if you don't like homosexuality, what's so bad about just not being gay yourself? Why tell other people they can't be? Why is it when they say they want to love someone of the same sex, you get to tell them they can't because you believe it's wrong? I doubt we'll get anywhere here, but I'd really like to know why people think they get to tell someone else how to live based on what they believe?
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,652
123
Exactly.

I've never understood the 'choice' argument, apart from its obvious absurdity. Even if it was a choice, then why the hell not?

There are plenty of worse choices to make in this world.

Edit: And don't diss the Quakers. :D
 

janey

macrumors 603
Dec 20, 2002
5,320
0
sunny los angeles
...because some people get a kick out of telling others what to believe (because the idea that not everyone shares the same beliefs is abhorrent).
and because others truly believe that homosexuality is just wrong (for what reason, i'll never know), not as an opinion, but as [twisted] fact. then again, the same people do change their minds a little when it's their beloved child, or a sibling or someone they care about who comes out. And then sometimes you get the nutcases that go insane and start disowning their kid for being gay, or abuse them, or throw them out of the house and never talk to them again.

re: american voters - It's quite obvious some Americans think the rest of America needs to stop bashing on the GLBT community. Otherwise, there would be no attempt to fight for gay rights at all (a la Gavin Newsom, and all those attempts to secure civil unions and marriages for same-sex couples).

The whole thing's just whacked. Many men who are homophobic have no qualms about anything when it comes to two attractive females who are partners, nobody really cares when it's the likes of Elton John or another gay/bisexual/lesbian/transgender celebrity getting married, or coming out. But they find out the two average men next door are partners, and they freak out.

And this is on the whole assumption that it's all about the sex. Not many successful relationships are based solely on the act of sexual intercourse, so why does it matter what gender the two people are?


Sheesh. </rant>
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,345
12,409
solvs said:
So, I've been thinking (and please don't ruin my thread like you did iGary's)... what if being gay was a choice?
I'm sure this will go the way of iGary's thread.

Why can't people just worry about how they want to live their lives and let others live theirs?
 

Deepdale

macrumors 68000
May 4, 2005
1,965
0
New York
rdowns said:
Why can't people just worry about how they want to live their lives and let others live theirs?
That could be done with a reasonable effort, but then it would take away part of the pleasure of them living their lives. The art of dictating to others and illustrating how and why they went wrong provides both the adrenaline rush and dubious claim to a higher moral ground that some need.
 

solvs

macrumors 603
Original poster
Jun 25, 2002
5,693
1
LaLaLand, CA
rdowns said:
Why can't people just worry about how they want to live their lives and let others live theirs?
Pretty much my point. I don't know, and I don't get it. I'm not gay myself, but I don't really honestly care if someone else is. And I certainly would never tell them they couldn't get married, any more than I would try to tell someone that their religion is wrong (despite my comment on the quakers). Isn't that how it's supposed to work here?

I guess some people just don't really get the correlation.
 

greatdevourer

macrumors 68000
Aug 5, 2005
1,996
0
solvs said:
since when do we base our laws on religion?
Since the beginning of law and order. Yes, now, people have ideas of what is right and wrong without religion, but they got it from their parents and the rest of society, which got it from the society before, etc, etc, which was based on a religion of sorts.
 

Blue Velvet

Moderator emeritus
Jul 4, 2004
21,652
123
The world would be a much better place without zealous young men running around claiming to speak for God. And believe me, I'm not only a Christian-basher although the madrassas of the mid-west seem equally capable of turning out cannon-fodder.
 

pseudobrit

macrumors 68040
Jul 23, 2002
3,418
4
Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
greatdevourer said:
Since the beginning of law and order. Yes, now, people have ideas of what is right and wrong without religion, but they got it from their parents and the rest of society, which got it from the society before, etc, etc, which was based on a religion of sorts.
Unless you're including philosophy as "a religion of sorts" you're wrong.
 
L

Lau

Guest
But...it's a thread in the Political forum, and...everyone's said really sensible things, and I agree with them! ;)

Well said Solvs. Absolutely.
 

Ugg

macrumors 68000
Apr 7, 2003
1,985
15
Penryn
greatdevourer said:
Since the beginning of law and order. Yes, now, people have ideas of what is right and wrong without religion, but they got it from their parents and the rest of society, which got it from the society before, etc, etc, which was based on a religion of sorts.
Roman and Greek laws weren't based on religion as much as they were on property rights. It's true that religion has influenced law making but to claim that religion is the basis of law making just goes too far.

It's true that some societies have instituted religious based law, Sharia comes to mind but those societies are the exception, not the rule.
 

zap2

macrumors 604
Mar 8, 2005
7,242
1
Washington D.C
solvs said:
Does that mean if a majority of Americans (read: American voters) were Quakers they would get to tell the rest of us we couldn't use toasters or cars?

With that statement i stopped read because your wrong, I go to a Quaker school, and we are far from "anti tech" we use toasters, cars ,infact we even start use technology before others do. An Example is that we have 50 iPods for Foreign Language, we have a full 3 computer labs, a full music lab(a computer lab but it's only used for music class.) 3 laptop Lab that move to different class and at least 1 computer in each classroom(many have more). Please next time know your facts before you a post such a bold and incorrect statment, perhaps then i would be able to comment about what your post was really about.
 

rdowns

macrumors Penryn
Jul 11, 2003
27,345
12,409
zap2 said:
With that statement i stopped read because you wrong, I go to a Quaker school, and we are far from "anti tech" we use toasters, cars ,infact we even start use technology before others do, example was have 50 iPods for Foreign Language, we 3 Full computer labs, a full music lab(a computer lab but it's only used for music class.) 3 laptop Lab that move to different class and at least 1 computer in each class room(many have more). Please next time know your facts before you a such a bold and incorrect statment, perhaps then i would be able to comment about what your post was really about.
Your school should be teaching you to read something in its entirety before commenting about it. Not to mention proper English.

The OP wasn't bashing Quakers (I think he meant Amish), just using different people as an example.
 

iGary

Guest
May 26, 2004
19,583
0
Randy's House
zap2 said:
With that statement i stopped read because you wrong, I go to a Quaker school, and we are far from "anti tech" we use toasters, cars ,infact we even start use technology before others do, example was have 50 iPods for Foreign Language, we 3 Full computer labs, a full music lab(a computer lab but it's only used for music class.) 3 laptop Lab that move to different class and at least 1 computer in each class room(many have more). Please next time know your facts before you a such a bold and incorrect statment, perhaps then i would be able to comment about what your post was really about.
Apparently the English language isn't on the curriculum, though. :p :D ;)

I think he meant Amish. ;)
 

zap2

macrumors 604
Mar 8, 2005
7,242
1
Washington D.C
Ya, i hoped he had made a mistake and my blind angry made me type such bad enlgish:p

(They have to buy it my story is flawless!)
 

mactastic

macrumors 68040
Apr 24, 2003
3,647
661
Colly-fornia
iGary said:
Oh please do, because fortunately for you, I was sleeping while you were thrashing my other thread. :D
Excellent letter BTW. You're my hero for the week.

Also noticed Erlich proposed something like a 12% increase in state spending while at the same time opposing a minimum-wage increase as fiscally irresponsible last week. Hell of a show you have going on there. ;)
 

zimv20

macrumors 601
Jul 18, 2002
4,388
7
toronto
skunk said:
I dunno. I've always thought that the ones who are most anti-gay are the ones who are afraid of their own sexuality.
bingo. and one of the straightest, most womanizing guys i know -- who is very secure in his sexuality -- has two gay men as roommates.
 

PlaceofDis

macrumors Core
Jan 6, 2004
19,232
4
zimv20 said:
bingo. and one of the straightest, most womanizing guys i know -- who is very secure in his sexuality -- has two gay men as roommates.
ill third this opinion.

i have no problem with gay guys. plenty have been my friends and are my friends. its just not for me. its the people who are afraid of the unknown that are anti gay.
 

neocell

macrumors 65816
May 23, 2005
1,074
2
Great White North
Maybe I'm missing something here, but of course it's a choice. Everything in life is a choice.

"The only thing you have to do is die, everything else is your decision."

I guess we can debate the whole born a homosexual, vs raised a homosexual, where I think both sides (Nature vs Nurture) play a role but in the end it's a decision. But beyond that who the hell cares if you choose to live a homosexual life. You're not hurting anyone, not bring the world down, just trying to find what's right for you, and how the hell can some damn politician tell you that you're wrong because he/she doesn't agree with your view. Be open minded, conservatives can bite my ass. Let people live in peace
 

iGary

Guest
May 26, 2004
19,583
0
Randy's House
mactastic said:
Excellent letter BTW. You're my hero for the week.

Also noticed Erlich proposed something like a 12% increase in state spending while at the same time opposing a minimum-wage increase as fiscally irresponsible last week. Hell of a show you have going on there. ;)
And I voted for the toolbox. He was good the first three years...and now.....
 

zimv20

macrumors 601
Jul 18, 2002
4,388
7
toronto
neocell said:
Maybe I'm missing something here, but of course it's a choice. Everything in life is a choice.
assuming you're a straight male, do you believe you can just suddenly decide to start having sex with and being attracted to men?
 

3rdpath

macrumors 68000
skunk said:
I dunno. I've always thought that the ones who are most anti-gay are the ones who are afraid of their own sexuality.
you got that right.

there was a study that divided males into 2 groups( homophobic and non-homophobic) based upon psych quizes. the men were individually shown gay erotic videos and their reactions were recorded by a wire around their penis..an engorgometer or something.

anyway, the homophobic group had the largest( ahem...) reaction to the videos of either group. the homophobes were also verbally quized later and without fail each member stated that they had not been aroused by the videos. denial...

another example of this behavior is Spokane's mayor who was caught trolling gay chatrooms and offering employment for sexual favors while doing this:

In more than 20 years in the Legislature, West had initiated legislation to outlaw sexual contact between consenting teenagers; supported a bill that would have barred gays and lesbians from working for schools, day care centers and some state agencies; voted to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman; and, as Senate majority leader, allowed a bill that would ban discrimination against gays and lesbians to die in committee without a hearing.