What is _Russia_ looking to achieve by manipulating the election?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by jpietrzak8, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. jpietrzak8, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017

    jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #1
    Over the last couple of days, the information provided by Trump Jr. about his meeting last year with a Russian lawyer has set off all sorts of talk about collusion and even about "treason". I personally don't think it really rises to that level, myself. However, there is a question that is going unasked here, and the guys at Just Security have penned an article which describes this perfectly: wasn't this offer of dirt from the Russians just a little bit too convenient?

    From the article:

    The media is, in large part, missing the point when it comes to the news about Donald Trump Jr.’s June 2016 meeting with Russian lawyer Natalia Vesilnitskaya and should be steering instead to raising the right questions. It is difficult to conceive of a scenario in which a private citizen in Russia has access to derogatory information on a U.S. presidential candidate. The act of offering such information was likely, at minimum, a trial balloon, and at best (from Moscow’s perspective), a chance to pass certain information from an agent of the Russian government to the Trump campaign through the candidate’s campaign manager and son, thereby also implicating Donald J. Trump himself.
    ...
    Vesilnitskaya may have had her own agenda in requesting a meeting with Trump. That part could be legitimate. But Russian intelligence practice is to co-opt such a person by arming them with secret intelligence information and tasking them to pass it to Trump’s people and get their reaction.
    ...
    Based on what we now know, this interaction had all the hallmarks of an overture by Russian intelligence to the campaign, and it is utterly damning that Trump Jr. took the meeting, brought in Manafort and Kushner to the meeting, and none of them reported the events immediately to the FBI nor to U.S. authorities until very recently.​

    https://www.justsecurity.org/43009/...-jr-emails-meeting-russian-government-lawyer/

    The full article is well worth a read.

    EDIT: I should have stated this more clearly before; the Just Security article got me wondering about the Russian side of this event. It sure feels like we are descending back into the good old spy vs spy days of the Cold War, and I'm wondering just what the Russians are looking to achieve here (and what else they may have attempted or are attempting to do). So I've updated the thread title to ask this question.
     
  2. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #2
    Actually, that's all the free press has been saying. BTW, we're no longer going to refer to them as the media or MSM. Free press is guaranteed by the Constitution.
     
  3. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #3
    I'll project my opinion a little further, because now, it may well come down to what this woman from Russia "says" she offered to the Trump campaign. If her story of events at this meeting conflicts with the other there, then it could bring down everyone.

    This maybe used to get the Trump administration to give favor to the Russians, if this woman is some sort of operative, in exchange for her testimony, or lack thereof.
     
  4. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #4
    Hmm. All I've been hearing is questions about who Vesilnitskaya is, and what reasons she personally may have been interested in meeting with the Trump campaign. But nobody seems to be asking the question "why would Vesilnitskaya have dirt on Clinton?". Yeah, sure, she could have just been stringing everybody along; but a wide group of folks who put this meeting together seemed to think that she, or whoever was backing her, was significant enough to believe the claim...
     
  5. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    #5
    Try watching MSNBC.
     
  6. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #6
    I don't think treason applies since we're not at war with Russia (yet). The situation is contentious enough that adding hyperbole won't help matters.

    I am in favour of just waiting for the investigations by the FBI and Congress to their course. We're so far down the rabbit hole now it is difficult to know what sources of information to trust. It's even remotely possible that Russia is now leaking things about the Trump campaign to undermine him further than his own actions (which would be quite a feat, I admit).

    In any case, if the allegations about Russia are true, then somebody over there deserves a great deal of credit for understanding the US electorate better than our own leaders.
     
  7. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #7
    I don't watch TV. ;)
     
  8. Night Spring macrumors G5

    Night Spring

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    #8
    When I read that Vesilnitskaya wanted to talk about adoptions, my thought was that she was offering a quid pro quo -- Russia will help Trump win the election, and in return would Trump lift the sanctions that led to the suspension of the adoptions if elected? TrumpJr may be too dim to realize that was why she was talking about the adoptions, but maybe Manafort and Kushner were smart enough to catch on.

    And yes, if you watch MSNBC, you learn to see nuances like this.
     
  9. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #9
    The emails don't lie. Remove everything else and you still have Jr actively going to a meeting because he believed he would get intelligence from Russia who was interested in helping is father

    The Crown prosecutor of Russia met with his father Aras this morning and in their meeting offered to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.

    This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump—helped along by Aras and Emin.

     
  10. DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #10
    Not sure if that proves any wrong doing on the part of the three people from the Trump campaign that attended the meeting, but I don't know what the law is.
     
  11. rdrr macrumors 6502a

    rdrr

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    #11
    That someone is Sergey Kislyak and he has been recalled to Russia, he will probably be given a heroes welcome.
     
  12. jpietrzak8 thread starter macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #12
    Guys, we already have several threads covering "wrongdoing" in minute detail. In this thread, I'd prefer we concentrate on the other side of the issue: that, far from just "hacking" the election, Russia appears now to have been actively trying to embed itself into at least the Trump campaign. Russian intelligence appears, with this latest revelation, to have been making a full-court press on all fronts available to them last year.

    I've gotta wonder what other stunts they managed to pull off...
     
  13. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #13
    The Russians' objective wasn't necessarily to get Trump elected. The objective was to sow distrust and discord among the US population in their electoral system. The Russians probably were aiming to have Hillary Clinton as a weakened and discredited President. From the perspective of the Russians, playing Trump was (literally) a no-lose proposition. As it turns out they are dealing with a weakened and discredited President Trump; one who seems dead-set on turning the USA into an international pariah.

    My take on this particular incident is that the Russians recognized that the Trump team was made up of people who were politically and legally unsophisticated and that moreover had at least a passing sympathy for Russia. If nothing else, they were all greedy men who had tried, with varying degrees of success, to do business there.

    If the Russians had made a similar offer to the Clinton people, I'm reasonably certain they would have been rebuffed and probably reported to the FBI. They were banking on the sneaky dishonesty of the Trumps to keep things secret.

    But make no mistake about this: Russian hackers broke into the communications of the Trump campaign just as thoroughly as they did the DNC and Clinton. And I'm absolutely certain they found enough incriminating evidence to send plenty of people to prison. They are holding onto that dirt until such time as it becomes useful for them to use it.
     
  14. noekozz macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    I'm starting to believe that we're witnessing Russia blackmailing the entire WH. Trump is prepping his base with the Fake News rhetoric in order to avoid further humiliation as further shoes are bound to drop.
     
  15. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #15
    Wrong doing aside - it pokes a hole in the WH's narrative that they have been shilling for the last several months.
     
  16. StarShot Suspended

    StarShot

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    #16
    MSNBC = Far Left ALL DAY LONG

    Fox News = Far Right ALL DAY LONG

    CNN = MSNBC almost ALL DAY LONG

    No where left to get balanced news IMO. in the print medium, perhaps WSJ

    Short version, sadly free speech = FAKE NEWS
     
  17. Gutwrench macrumors 68000

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    #17
    What's the scoop on Goldstone? We've heard some from Jr and Veselnitskaya. What's Goldstone's explanation?
     
  18. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #18

    Yes, but my point is that whoever did this in Russia sensed the US was on some sort of tipping point and a gentle nudge might make things break their way, and cause endlessly reverberating collateral damage to faith in the US government both domestically and and internationally along the way. You kinda have to tip your hat to them for the insight and ingenuity of it all.
     
  19. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #19
    he's really the wild card, eh? I mean - he's the one who wrote the phrase in the email about Russia wanting to help the campaign. Why would he do that? It still wouldn't excuse Jr from taking the meeting. But it is interesting that Goldstone was the intermediary and was very specific in his email
    --- Post Merged, Jul 12, 2017 ---
    This was at least an interesting read: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-12/trump-wanted-to-collude-but-did-putin
     
  20. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #20

    Trump Jr. said she didn't have anything useful, and that she was almost incomprehensible. So what exactly would he report to the Feds? That some random person he met through an acquaintance wasted 20 minutes of his time? What would the Feds even do with that information?
     
  21. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #21
    The Bloomberg article is on the right track, but it gets this part wrong:

    The Kremlin did want to collude with Trump. But they are smart enough to know that if they'd given damaging information directly to Trump, it's value would be compromised.

    The Russians played it smart. If Donald Trump Jr. or Paul Manafort had gone on TV and announced they'd gotten hold of e-mails incriminating Hillary Clinton or the DNC, then most people would automatically discredit them. Manafort and Donald Jr. would have become the focus of investigation. (Where had they gotten this obviously stolen information?)

    Instead, Putin's spies used Wikileaks, as an ostensible source for information about "corruption", to whitewash the material. People, or at least the sort of people Putin wanted to sway, trusted Wikileaks as a source far more than they would have something coming out of the Trump campaign on Fox News.
     
  22. dogslobber macrumors 68030

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    #22
    A number of politicians have said if you get offered information from an "agent" of a foreign government then you immediately call in the FBI. Gore did this in 2000. You don't set up a meeting with the foreign agent in the same building as your candidate has their main office, and certainly not the floor below.

    All sorts of red flags are being raised that Trump JR is in deep trouble. Can his father pardon him?
     
  23. darksithpro macrumors regular

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    #23
    Maybe I watched too much "Quantico" on Netflix, but this Russian lawyer reeks of a three letter agency.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-obama-ambassador-russia-8-days-trump-jr-mtg/

    "The law firm where Veselnitskaya is listed as managing partner, Kamerton Consulting, is based in a Moscow suburb and does not even have a website.

    A staff member at Kamerton told The Associated Press Veselnitskaya was unavailable for comment on Monday.

    Her office in Moscow may be a shell. There is no working phone, email or website."

    There's a video of her sitting next to our former ambassador to Russia. I think Trump needs to contact the CIA director and see if she's an agent, or was one. This would set of red flags that a black op was run on american soil and the FBI would be pissed if this was on their turf.
     
  24. Gutwrench macrumors 68000

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    #24
    I have been busy today but unless there has been breaking news from last night
    there still doesn't seem to be a criminal act committed. If so which one and which act constituted it?
     
  25. dogslobber macrumors 68030

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    #25
    The Democratic VP Presidential candidate for 2016 says it is treason.
     

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