What is going on with the G5?

Falleron

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Nov 22, 2001
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Ok people, lets have a summary of what we are getting in january!

Has or has the G5 not gone into production?
Will it just be the G4 (new spec) chip?
Are the iMac rumours from 1 source? If so is it correct?

http://www.macosrumorus.com is still not available, whats going on?
 

MacManiac1224

macrumors regular
Oct 21, 2001
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NY
I gotta say.....

I am with Falleron on this one. I think everybody is just as confused as us on this topic. My idea is this: No matter what anybody says, it is basically all rumors, except that thing with Apple ordering 100,000 15' LCD displays. I am all for the G5, but we really won't know until Jan 8. I guess we are just playing a guessing game.
 

Falleron

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Nov 22, 2001
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Re: I gotta say.....

Everybody has no idea whats going to happen with the powerMacs! Its not a good thing to speculate too much because we will all be disappointed when the G5 does not come out until the summer (even if we want it in january).

 

oldMac

macrumors 6502a
Oct 25, 2001
522
1
wow! 15' displays

That means apple must be getting into the digital billboard market, don't you think?
 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
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>Ok people, lets have a summary of what we are getting in january!
>Has or has the G5 not gone into production?

(G5 desktop boxes or MPC8500 processor?)

It should have (8500) by now; the 8500 should have been taped out months
ago (even by relaxed expectations). Motorola has announced their 8540,
which contains a Book E compliant core (i.e. a G5 core) sans altivec (the
pdf says "222 new simd instructions" iirc -- odd, probably not altivec II;
it would have been branded such otherwise). So the G5 core is finished and
presumably the 8500 is not significantly different from the 8540 (same
core, plus altivec rather than these mysterious "222 new simd
instructions" the pdf mentioned). If the 8540 has gone into production
then I believe it would be safe to assume the 8500 is ready to go into
production also. Apple would presumably be chomping at the bit for 8500s,
so it stands to reason that Moto is fabricating them as we speak.

*pant* *pant* [i did that in full so no one annoys me with phony-sounding
pessimism -- it annoys me]

So I conclude that Motorola has finished the 8500 and that it is currently
in fabrication en masse for apple (or will be soon, my point is that the
obstacles have been cleared given the hard evidence of the 8540 we have so
far). So assuming my logic is sound, Apple will release 8500-based Pro
desktops provided they get a sufficient volume of 8500s. Apple can always
buy themselves another month by announcing the G5 macs in February
(macworld tokyo), shipping say 4-6 weeks after (notice that by then, we're
~halfway to MWNY :p). That should buy Apple plenty of time -- one month at
least -- to accumulate more G5s/shout at||threaten motorola/get moto to
get yields up/whatever it takes, and without needing a G4 refresh in the
interim.



>Will it just be the G4 (new spec) chip?

The rumours state that Apple will ship Apollo processors in their pro
line, but the actual line itself will be branded the Power Macintosh G5.

I doubt Apple will do this; if so, when the 8500-based Pro line is
released, what will Apple name that? (`G6'?)



>Are the iMac rumours from 1 source? If so is it correct?

How are we meant to tell if the rumours are correct? :p



>http://www.macosrumorus.com is still not available, whats going on?

(is it that big a deal?) mosr's always (constantly, chronically) upgrading
servers/switching providers/going on holiday etc etc etc. Their pace of
update has slowed to a crawl in the past year or so, particularly since
their switching to OS X Server (probably a good thing given their track
record).
 

Falleron

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Original poster
Nov 22, 2001
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Who in their right mind will spend large amounts of money on an apollo based powermac in mid january when they could get a G5 in say febuary/march? From what I have read the G5 will give a large bump in speed --> making the january systems almost straight away out of date!

I know that all systems as soon as you buy them are out of date, but such a large revision so soon???
 
comments

"*pant* *pant* [i did that in full so no one annoys me with phony-sounding pessimism -- it annoys me]"

No phony pessimism here buster. If it SOUNDS phony, I deeply, passionately, from the bottom-most reaches of my heart, apologize.


"Their pace of update has slowed to a crawl in the past year or so, particularly since their switching to OS X Server (probably a good thing given their track record)."

Ayyyymen. No great loss there. Kinda like AOL UK not supporting Mac OS X. I know I won't be shedding any tears.
 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
117
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Falleron>Who in their right mind will spend large amounts of money on an
apollo based powermac in mid january when they could get a G5 in say
febuary/march?

That was my point, namely that Apple doesn't need to release Apollo based
powermacs in january even if they can't get volume from moto -- they can
buy a month by releasing at tokyo. That's ~4 weeks in hand to accumulate
stocks of 8500s.
 

Falleron

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Nov 22, 2001
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I think they should do that (even though I want a G5 now!!), so do you think we will only get new iMacs in january? Makes sense really, give all attention to the iMac?
 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
117
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Falleron> I think they should do that (even though I want a G5 now!!), so
do you think we will only get new iMacs in january? Makes sense really,
give all attention to the iMac?

Good point. Apple wouldn't want to announce a whole new imac revamp and
the G5 (8500, NOT the Apollo, I doubt strongly that Apple will badge 7460s
as `G5s') at the same expo. So if volume production is humming along fine
as we speak and apple can get their hands on good supplies of G5s, then G5
in january and perhaps (_perhaps_) a tokyo imac announcement. However, if
Apple wants to announce the G5 in february due to poor G5 yields, then the
imac will have to be shoehorned into january -- meaning no major updates
as the FX will not be shipping then as I gather, it will only be sampling
in January, meaning announcement-only, delayed-release. In that case,
Apple would probably aim a revamped imac at MWNY. I have already stated my
case above that the 8500 is finished (without having to rely on rumour =])
so assuming my logic is sound, Apple's release schedule 2002 will most
likely rely on 8500 yields.

So in short, January imacs would be a spec-bump-only if released. Apple
would aim a substantial revamp mid-year.
 

rekras

macrumors regular
Sep 3, 2001
172
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NJ
on apple's hotnews today under the steve jobs keynote, steve says, "We're working hard to make this January's Macworld the most exciting ever." sounds cool

-i think it's pretty clear now that the way overdue imac will come out

-but i still think everyone is still pretty confused over the G5, i think i'd be dumb if they speed bumped the g4's now and but the g5s out in feb, it's either now or New York
 

MacManiac1224

macrumors regular
Oct 21, 2001
227
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NY
I Think:

I think that Apple will probaly release the new iMac line in Jan with the G4 Apollo chip. My other thinking is that Apple would release the G5 in Maworld Tokyo. That sounds good to me. MWNY might have something new instore: maybe like a new digital device.
 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
117
0
Re: I Think:

MacManiac1224> I think that Apple will probaly release the new iMac line
in Jan with the G4 Apollo chip. My other thinking is that Apple would
release the G5 in Maworld Tokyo.

Indeed. G5-at-tokyo would buy Apple the extra few weeks to accumulate
8500s. Above I asserted that the January iMacs (assuming they're released
in january due to the G5s being forced to February) being spec-bumps at
most; G4s are a distinct possibility (don't know how I forgot to mention
Apollo-based imacs, i think i was hungry at the time =]); in fact it's
probable in at least the top end iMacs due to the FX missing the boat
somewhat. Low-end imac revisions at MWNY could conceivably have FXs, but I
believe that Apple will transition the entire imac line to G4s in one hit
in jan/feb or over jan/feb and MWNY (july? iirc). I believe that Apple
will use the FX for laptops, IBM's releases on the matter lead me to
believe that the FX would make a superb iBook processor with its
nonexistent power consumption and Altivec compatibility (assuming the SIMD
units referred to by many pan out as true, I haven't investigated it
further -- check
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/products/PowerPC_750FX_Microprocessor
and view the middle and last documents (PDFs, 200 - 300k each -- I don't
have the time right now to check them out, so if there's no mention of
SIMD in them...)


> That sounds good to me. MWNY might have something new instore: maybe
like a new digital device.

Possibly, a step further in the digital hub initiative maybe? If Apple can
get volume of higher-clockspeed G5s, i'm sure they would be chomping at
the bit to get some back at the Wintel world :cool:
 

dantec

macrumors 6502a
Nov 6, 2001
605
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California
G5's will be announced at Macworld & ship in February. iMacs will ship with APPLEos and "hopefully" (lets all pray now) the flatpanel iMac will be launched. I just hope the GeForce 3 Titanium 500 will be launched. We had the original GeForce 3 first & now the PC get all the priveleges with the upgraded version!
 

Ensign Paris

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2001
1,781
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Europe
Let it snow! Happy Christmas

I think we will see:

G5s Announced but not released
G4 slightly upgraded with max being 1ghz
NEW DESIGN iMac! at 1ghz

Guy
 

Falleron

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Nov 22, 2001
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Re: Let it snow! Happy Christmas

Originally posted by Ensign Paris
I think we will see:

G5s Announced but not released
G4 slightly upgraded with max being 1ghz
NEW DESIGN iMac! at 1ghz

Guy
I think the G4 will bumped up to 1.2Ghz
 

rickag

macrumors regular
Apr 9, 2001
153
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joey j
"If the 8540 has gone into production then I believe it would be safe to assume the 8500 is ready to go into production also. "
If you go to Motorola's website using the following link;
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,568_322_23,00.html

and read the article you will find the following quote;
Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002.

Because the MPC8450 is presumably a much less complicated chip than a desktop cpu, I would think the G5 for use by Apple will come after the MPC8450 is in production. I very well could be wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but based on this info. I'm not expecting Apple to begin using a G5 for quite some time.

[Edited by rickag on 12-12-2001 at 07:53 PM]
 
The G5

"Because the MPC8450 is presumably a much less complicated chip than a desktop cpu, I would think the G5 for use by Apple will come after the MPC8450 is in production. I very well could be wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but based on this info. I'm not expecting Apple to begin using a G5 for quite some time."

Hmmm... don't wanna say anything. Don't want to be accused of feigning pessimism.
 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
117
0
joey j> "If the 8540 has gone into production then I believe it would be
safe to assume the 8500 is ready to go into production also. "[/QUOTE]

>If you go to Motorola's website using the following link;
http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail/0,1958,568_322_23,00.html

>and read the article you will find the following quote;
>Samples of the MPC8540 are expected to be available in the second half of 2002.

I should have refined my argument further; remove all instances of "has
gone into production" and replace with "is finished". I presumed that
finished architectures go immediately into production, which may not
necessarily be the case (although it is unnerving :( )

In any case the book E core should have been finished by now; Motorola may
very well be working on the SIMD extensions to the 8540 (which may be the
reason for the delay) whereas the 8500 has altivec (finished). If the book
E core is finished (which should be a safe assumption -- any objections?),
and Altivec is finished, then the 8500 should be finished, unless i've
missed an area of processor development in particular.


>Because the MPC8450 is presumably a much less complicated chip than a desktop cpu,

I disagree; as they're both book E compliant (as opposed to the
differences between (say) the 4xx and the 74xx series) so there's no major
difference, apart from the potentially complicated extra SIMD extensions
to the 8540. (which motorola could still be in the process of designing).


> I would think the G5 for use by Apple will come after the MPC8450 is in
production. I very well could be wrong, I HOPE I'm wrong, but based on
this info. I'm not expecting Apple to begin using a G5 for quite some time.

Apple has had the 74xx architecture since ~sep 99. They won't wait another
year for the G5; six months maybe.
 
Joey, you assume a lot

"Apple has had the 74xx architecture since ~sep 99. They won't wait another year for the G5; six months maybe."

Apple's hands were tied by Moto 2 years ago, and they've only broken the 500MHz barrier this past year. Apple "won't wait another year"? What if they have no choice?

As Mulder's poster said, "I want to believe." But what I want to believe in may be just as impossible.
 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
117
0
Re: Joey, you assume a lot

Kethoticus> "Apple has had the 74xx architecture since ~sep 99. They won't
wait another year for the G5; six months maybe."

>Apple's hands were tied by Moto 2 years ago, and they've only broken the
500MHz barrier this past year. Apple "won't wait another year"? What if
they have no choice?

>As Mulder's poster said, "I want to believe." But what I want to believe
in may be just as impossible.


Haha, true, Apple's hands are indeed tied by Moto's yields. I was
reasoning that Apple had been setting up alternative fabrication
partnerships given Motorola's lacklustre fabrication of the G4 series. In
any case, the G5 will be fabricated in Moto's new process (all the
buzzwords), 0.13u transitioning to 0.1u, low-k-constant dielectrics, and
SOI. So the G5s should have better yields than the G4s.
 

rickag

macrumors regular
Apr 9, 2001
153
0
"E core is finished (which should be a safe assumption -- any objections?)"

No, but if you go to the link below and to page 4 it says;
"-e500 core. Motorola's first G5 offering, optimized for performance and power, specifically designed for embedded market"

http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDFH1101.pdf

Note that the e500 core is the one used in the MPC8450. Two things stand out to me.

1 "the e500 is the first G5 offering"
2 "specifically designed for embedded market"

This tells me that a different core will be used for chips for the desktop market and they will come after the MPC8450.

So for a chip for Apple = new core, tying it to RapidI/O, OCeaN (On-Chip Network)., etc. In my very limited knowledge this still would be very complicated.

Still hope I'm wrong and the G5 comes out, but regardless, I'm buying in Jan. :)

Oh one more note: look to page 19 of the PDF concerning the MPC7540 G4
"-DDR SRAM L3 backside cache design implementation"
"- MVP will be offered to customers as a development system in 3Q01"

Combined this w/ HiP7(0.13µ and SOI) for the MPC7460 Apollo = very very nice upgrade.

 

joey j

macrumors regular
Oct 19, 2001
117
0
joey j> "E core is finished (which should be a safe assumption -- any
objections?)"

rickag>No, but if you go to the link below and to page 4 it says; "-e500
core. Motorola's first G5 offering, optimized for performance and power,
specifically designed for embedded market"

... sounds like marketingspeak to me :p. It does have "optimized for
performance and power", see? :p. As far as "specifically designed for
embedded market goes", um, see below, i'm replying to you bottom-up for
some reason. The "specifically designed" features could be the
(apparently) DSP-like functionality in the 8540, which Apple most
likely won't be using (and is the most likely delay to the 8540, apart
from maybe the extra simd instructions apple won't require either).



>http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/SNDFH1101.pdf

>Note that the e500 core is the one used in the MPC8450. Two things stand
out to me.

>1 "the e500 is the first G5 offering"
>2 "specifically designed for embedded market"

>This tells me that a different core will be used for chips for the
desktop market and they will come after the MPC8450.

( ... 8540.)

A different core? Hardly. I doubt Motorola's going to design an entire new
"core" (note the vagueness of the term), particularly if your conclusion
was reached on the basis of marketing speak (their press release was for
the benefit of their customers, i.e. largely the embedded market, they
want to hear that the 8540 is specifically "designed for the embedded
market" whether or not that particular book E implementation goes down
well in desktops or not.) Remember that the same second-generation G4 core
in the 7450 core serves both cisco and Apple, so I can't see why Moto
can't pull the same stunt with the G5 core.



>So for a chip for Apple = new core,

I disagree altogether. A "new core" means either a ground up redesign
(e.g. G5) or at least a major step forward from a previous architecture
(603e -> 7xx). It's not going to happen; the 8540 core is the "G5 core"
which Apple undoubtedly must have prototypes of (at least). Although
that's just my opinion 8)



> tying it to RapidI/O, OCeaN (On-Chip Network)., etc. In my very limited
knowledge this still would be very complicated.

Is apple going to use rapidio? Bear in mind that Apple is listed as part
of the hypertransport consortium. In any case I have read that rapidio is
"ready to go". I don't have the url but the quote was from someone from
the Microprocessor Report as i recall.