What is libertarianism?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by eric/, Apr 24, 2013.

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  1. eric/ Guest

    eric/

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    #1
    A few times in the past I've come across individuals that associate libertarianism with conservatives, or the GOP, and I've had to occasionally go off topic to explain why that's incorrect. I figured I'd start a thread in hopes of demonstrating what libertarianism really is, and why the GOP/Republicans/Conservatives aren't libertarianism:

    To start with:

    From Stanford


    Ok. So let's look at what distinguishes right/left:

    Alright, so what about anarchism?

    So whew. Kind of long but I think it's highlights quite clearly that:

    A. libertarianism isn't the same thing as anarchy
    B. What a right/left libertarian is
    C. Libertarianism is not related to the GOP
    D. Libertarianism is much more likely to be sympathetic toward the "left wing"

    And these are important components for proper understanding of this philosophy.

    An important consideration:

    With that being said, I hope you now have a better understanding of what libertarianism is. :D
     
  2. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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  3. mcrain, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013

    mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #3
    That's all wonderful, except libertarians vote for republicans. So, there is really no substantive difference from a practical political viewpoint.

    Ron Paul, the tea party, the entire libertarian movement, is nothing more than a feel-good way of encouraging people who hated the Reagan, Bush, Bush II records to still vote for republicans without feeling so dirty.
     
  4. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #5
    Until I see a groundswell of libertarians who support libertarian ideals that happen to be major parts of the democratic platform instead of blindly supporting a party that has as much to do with libertarianism as I do with Lebron James, I won't buy the argument that libertarianism is some "independent" "free thinking" movement separate from the republicans they consistently vote for.
     
  5. Peterkro, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013

    Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #6
    Usual warning with these threads."Libertarianism" in this sense is a very recent and almost entirely U.S. phenomenon (although other smallish groups in other parts of the world predominately the U.K. and former colonies have recently been climbing on the bandwagon).

    The term libertarian was coined by Joseph Dejacque who used it to differentiate his anarchism from that of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon who's views embraced gender inequality a market economy and several other dodgy ideas.In most of the world libertarian/libertaire is a synonym for anarchist.

    Part of the confusion in the U.S. arises from the misuse of the word liberal, "Libertarianism" began to be used with the start of the "Libertarian Party" in the 1970's previous to this the word was used in it's usual sense in the U.S. as well.

    Fundamentally people grouped under the term "Libertarian" are right wing,individualist with a penchant for the "I'm alright Jack F555 you philosophy".
     
  6. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #7
    I find it seriously disturbing that his example of a justifiable use of a drone strike is this:


    Killing lower-class person who robs liquor store? OK! Flying over yard of rich person in hot tub? No way! That violates my individual liberty!

    The man is a scumbag.
     
  7. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #8
    I agree. He should join the Authoritarian Party.
     
  8. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #9
    He already did. He was a Republican.
     
  9. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #10
    I had never heard of this party until I came to this site.

    But to me it sounds like a party for spoilt white middle class kids, who have a major problem with sharing.

    So basically it's all about ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME.
     
  10. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #11
    In practical terms, American glibertarianism is a frying-pan-fire situation. The left do not support most of the basic glibertarian platform because of where it leads. We grumble about speed limits and fishing licenses but at the end of the day can appreciate why they are not oppressive and why they are there.

    Not unlike the big two, the Glibertarian party is right on the edge of becoming another corporate handmaiden. Their platform trades government control for corporate control, which ultimately works out to the same thing: faceless bureaucrats running the country – except, with no electoral accountability.

    Unbounded freedom is barely distinguishable from tyranny, as I can attest from having to try to sleep the other night while my neighbor was practicing his electric bass. In a tyranny, there is one person, or a few people, enjoying their freedom at the expense of everyone, in a libertopia, everyone is enjoying their freedom at the expense of everyone else. What difference does it make whether you are oppressed by the emperor or by your neighbors?
     
  11. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #12
    Libertarians need a bible, the irrefutable Word of Libertas™, something they can all agree on, like Christians, Moslems and Jews. Then they wouldn't be split into all these silly factions. Oh, wait...
     
  12. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #13
    Except that is incorrect. Not all libertarians vote Republican.
     
  13. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #14
    No, libertarians who vote for democrats are democrats, while those that vote for republicans are republicans.

    Recently, the only people who claim to be libertarians are those that voted republican but are embarrassed about it.
     
  14. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #15
    If Libertarians aren't Republicans, they should man up and form their own party, and vote for that.
     
  15. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #16
    That is a ridiculous statement.

    Abortion:

    Government should be kept out of the matter of abortion. (May 2008)
    Abortion is a woman’s choice and does not concern the state. (Jul 2000)

    Civil rights:

    Support individual’s right to choose, even if we disapprove. (May 2008)
    Repeal all laws against homosexuality. (Jul 2000)
    Right to complete freedom of expression includes pornography. (Jul 2000)
    Redress the wrongs of the U.S. towards the Indians. (Jul 2000)

    Drugs:

    Repeal all drug laws creating “crimes” without victims. (May 2008)
    The war on drugs threatens individual liberties. (Jul 2000)

    http://www.ontheissues.org/Libertarian_Party.htm

    To claim people with this stance on social issues automatically vote republican is just plain ignorance.

    Fiscal issues they are more conservative, but the social issues clearly separate them from the reoublican party.

    I'm NOT talking about Ron Paul and the paulbots.
     
  16. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #17
    This site might help you more :

    Libertarian.org
     
  17. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #18
    You mean like all members of the green party man up and vote green party? Oh wait, lots vote democrat.
     
  18. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    Do you actually know otherwise? I'm sure they aren't in lockstep, but I expect the State-trimming rhetoric of the Tea Party and other Republicans sits quite comfortably.
     
  19. Mord macrumors G4

    Mord

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    #20
    It bothers me that right-wing libertarians seem to have dominion on the word "libertarian" in the mainstream. Then again, left-libertarianism seems to have no mainstream collective support beyond idealistic individuals.

    Liberty is something I think most of us aspire to, it's a real shame that the only political entities which seem to prioritise it seem to want to package it with a fiscal policy that would ensure an economic system where few practically get to enjoy that liberty.

    I'd like to call myself a libertarian, but as it stands that needs qualifying to distinguish my beliefs with what most people take the word to mean.
     
  20. Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #21
    Institute for humane studies? Why not the libertarian party?

    http://www.lp.org/platform

    This is their platform:

    So it's really the same as I posted.

    ----------

    Do you really believe people that support gay rights, choice to abortion and want the government to abstain from aid or attack on any religion to be all voting republican? Do you have any proof?

    You are saying the tea party is for gay rights, abortion, etc.?

    Of course the fiscal stance fits with republicans, but the social stance is with democrats. That's the point, they are neither. Some lean left, some right.
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #22
    And what a recipe for disaster that is. Thanks for the link: I never realised quite what loons these people are.

    ----------

    No, I don't, but I've heard of few self-styled Libertarians (capital L) voting Democrat. That's why I asked you if you had any grounds for your own assertion above.
     
  22. Toltepeceno, Apr 24, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013

    Toltepeceno Suspended

    Toltepeceno

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    #23
    My grounds are what they stand for (social issues) and people that I knew who said they were libertarians before it was hijacked by Ron Paul. I've known those that vote both ways. It's funny, Republicans actually hate libertarians as much as democrats do. Go to a conservative site and see how they are treated. The blaze, hannity, etc. Especially hated for the stance on gay rights and abortion alone.

    ----------

    I won't argue that, but do you not see where they differ from repubs on many (social) issues?

    I have not lived in the US since Ron Paul has hijacked the party, perhaps that is part of it. It used to not seem so "nutty".
     
  23. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #24
    In US, the two major parties have an effective stranglehold on the system. A few people are going to vote fringe, but most will go A or B, because even an elected official is almost certainly going to have little effect unless they are A or B.

    In the final analysis, economics is the choice-driver, and on those issues, the left will not align with the glibertarians, but the glibertarians will line up on the right. I mean, seriously, if the economic system is working against you, impeding your survival, how important are those other issues?
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #25
    The gist of their platform seems to be "you can do anything you want as long as you leave my STUFF alone". I can see how they could imagine the Republican platform to be closer than the Democrats, in a totally selfish and misguided fit of expedient delusion. Given your two party system, it's bound to happen. Some people will jump into bed with anybody.
     
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