What is the law regarding illegals who cross the southern border with children?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Rogifan, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Rogifan, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

    Rogifan macrumors Core

    Rogifan

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    #1
    This is what some members of the White House are saying. Others claim this is a lie and it’s not law but rather a Trump administration policy that could be rescinded. So which is it? The administration seems to be all over the place in terms of messaging.

    EDIT: and Ben Sasse posted a long statement on Facebook which says in part:

    https://www.facebook.com/SenatorSasse/posts/1654442654653673:0
    "The administration’s decision to separate families is a new, discretionary choice. Anyone saying that their hands are tied or that the only conceivable way to fix the problem of catch-and-release is to rip families apart is flat wrong. The administration’s decision to separate families is a new, discretionary choice. Anyone saying that their hands are tied or that the only conceivable way to fix the problem of catch-and-release is to rip families apart is flat wrong. There are other options available to them. The other options are all messy (given that some overly prescriptive judges have limited their administrative options), but there are ways to address this that are less bad than the policy of family separation they’ve chosen.“
     
  2. TonyC28 macrumors 65816

    TonyC28

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    #2
    Send em back. With one kid or a hundred, show them the exit. Our southern border has become a political cluster f—-.
     
  3. Rogifan thread starter macrumors Core

    Rogifan

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    #3
    So what is the law?

    Trump says criminals are using children to get into the country. What is his source for that? I’d like to know the source to verify since it’s so difficult to know if he’s ever telling the truth.

    https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1008708576628625408?s=21

    I would say this Twitter thread gets it right:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #4
    So many typos...so many redundant tweets

    Screen Shot 2018-06-18 at 10.00.05 AM.png
     
  5. TonyC28 macrumors 65816

    TonyC28

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    #5
    So based on my quick Google search (so basically I’m an expert now by Internet standards) I found this article:
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/05/world/americas/us-un-migrant-children-families.html
    That includes a link to this article:
    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/...curity-prosecute-undocumented-immigrants.html

    Sounds like the separating parents from children thing is the result of the parent being arrested for the crime they committed. And then add about 100 layers of politics and nonsense on top of that.
     
  6. tshrimp macrumors 6502

    tshrimp

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    #6
    I am not sure. I know much of this started out under Obama, so a google search adding that criteria should bring up at least what the policy or law was under him. I remember us talking about this when Obama was doing the same thing.
     
  7. LizKat macrumors 603

    LizKat

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    #7
    Be that as it may, the administration is definitely losing the PR battle on this policy, because of negative effects on child development, which are being noted publicly by professionals. And those reports are not sunk in media bias issues, either. It's that there's no way to make this look good because there's no way in which the policy is good. It's not a deterrent, it's not healthful, it's cruel and immoral.

    The former first lady Laura Bush (and resident of a border state, Texas), has weighed in with an op-ed in the Washington Post on Father's Day, and she was not sparing in her assessment of this administration's zero-tolerance policy as cruel. In her piece, the former First Lady cited a report that provided some details of the policy in action at one of the warehouses: that while beds, toys and crayons etc. are provided, and while caretakers are permitted to look after basic necessities like diaper changes of toddlers and infants, they were instructed not to touch or pick up the children just to comfort them.

    From a WaPo piece describing developmental impact of those rules:

    Such a situation could have long-term, devastating effects on young children, who are likely to develop what is called toxic stress in their brain once separated from caregivers or parents they trusted. It disrupts a child’s brain development and increases the levels of fight-or-flight hormones in their bodies, Kraft said. This kind of emotional trauma could eventually lead to health problems, such as heart disease and substance abuse disorders.

    Kraft and her organization are not alone in this opinion.

    “While not all of the children we are ripping from their parents will suffer the full consequences of toxic stress, many may,” child psychologist Megan Gunnar of the University of Minnesota told BuzzFeed News.

    “The age of the child matters,” Gunnar said. Children under age 10 are of deep concern, she said. “Those under 5 should get us all running around with our hair on fire to get this practice stopped.”​
     
  8. jerwin macrumors 68020

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    #8
    Surely this is a biopolitical question, and not a legal one?
     
  9. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #9
    This administration is incubating a future generation of mental illness or worse. It's truly disgusting. And should not be a partisan issue. Trump is making it one by lying about who is in control of the situation. Children should not be used as political pawns.
     
  10. Vanilla Ice macrumors 6502

    Vanilla Ice

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    #10
    So then get rid of catch and release and we’ll be off to a good start.
     
  11. Rogifan thread starter macrumors Core

    Rogifan

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    #11
    Just the other day Kirstjen Nielsen, head of DHS, said the administration isn’t separating families, period. Today in a speech that the administration isn’t going to apologize for doing its job and illegal actions have consequences. The administration is all over the map on this. They know overall it’s a political loser but there is a minority of the GOP base that won’t accept anything except the hardest line on immigration.
     
  12. jerwin macrumors 68020

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    #12
    what a dehumanizing metaphor. Par for the course, I suppose.
     
  13. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #13
    We've done a rather fine job of creating a new generations of enemies in the middle east with our shenanigans there this policy will go a long way toward creating new generations of enemies and these enemies aren't a continent and an ocean away
     
  14. Vanilla Ice macrumors 6502

    Vanilla Ice

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    #14
    This just shows how bad our boarder and immigration policy/situation is. Nothing new. It’s all terrible and needs to be fixed. Both sides need to figure it out without pointing the finger at Trump. All of our elected officials need to knock off the BS and get to work.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 18, 2018 ---
    Oh never mind. Open the gates and let illegals flood your neighborhood :rolleyes: You have nothing. This isn’t only about the children as both Democrats and Republicans find ways to politicize our crappy boarder laws.
     
  15. LizKat, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

    LizKat macrumors 603

    LizKat

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    #15
    Hostage tweet situation.... best way to describe Nielsen's remark. Gotta read between the lines. And then there's the pesky NYT pointing out that detention of would-be asylum seekers often occurs just outside "permissible" port of entry applications for asylum. This administration is expert at busting the spirit of our laws and then finding the ways to end-run the letter of the ones they find annoying.


    HostageTweetSituation.jpg
     
  16. obeygiant, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

    obeygiant macrumors 601

    obeygiant

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    #16
    The issue of what happens to children when a parent is incarcerated is one that has received attention from governments and organizations around the world. And certainly the scale of the issue is not small. For instance, according to a 2011 study (see p. 5) by the Quaker United Nations Office (QUNO), a non-governmental organization that participates in various United Nations activities, 800,000 children in the European Union (EU) are separated from “an incarcerated parent on a given day each year.” A 2010 U.S. Department of Justice report noted(pp. 1-3) that in 2007 over 800,000 of the then nearly 1.5 million national prison population were parents of children under the age of 18; of these, the children of twenty-two percent of state inmates and sixteen percent of federal inmates were under the age of 4. Furthermore, the number of children with a mother in prison more than doubled between 1991 and 2007.

    A corridor in women’s wing, Chester County Prison, Chester County, PA (photo by Ned Goode, September 1960) (Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division, //hdl.loc.gov/loc.pnp/hhh.pa0327/photos.132386p).

    Incarcerated mothers of young children are often (p. 34) the primary or sole caretakers of their children. In this and other situations (including instances in which the children are too young to be separated from their mother or were born in jail), many countries allow children to temporarily reside in prison with their mothers. For instance, according to the QUNO study, 980 infants lived in prison with incarcerated parents in the EU in 2011 and 2,135 children lived with 1,774 incarcerated mothers in Indian prisons in 2008.​


    Unless you want to change the law so that children can live with their parents in prison it may have to stay like it is.

    People who break the law and must be incarcerated are routinely separated from their children and the children are placed with another relative or in foster care. It looks like its the same as with people who try to cross the border illegally.


    edited for grammar police
     
  17. RichardMZhlubb Contributor

    RichardMZhlubb

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    #17
    I'd just like to note my objection to the use of the term "illegals" in the thread title. People are not "illegal." Actions may be illegal, but in this case, Trump is applying this policy to many people who are arriving at the border and applying for asylum, which is not, in and of itself, an illegal act.
     
  18. Vanilla Ice macrumors 6502

    Vanilla Ice

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    #18
    This is where the left will argue with you. They are making it about just the childeren. Having a child will not give you a get out of jail card. Period.
     
  19. Rogifan thread starter macrumors Core

    Rogifan

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    #19
    Is catch and release a law congress passed? If it was just a policy the Obama administration had then then I assume the Trump administration can reverse the policy?
    The problem is the WH chose to start separating kids first, without any public argument for or explanation of the policy or what they wanted to see changed. Basically the WH believes 1) separating families was a positive good because of the potential deterrent effect and 2) willingness of the WH to be exceedingly cruel in order to gain leverage in immigration negotiations.
     
  20. Tinmania macrumors 68040

    Tinmania

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    #20


    I find it ironic that the two most vocal "lock up the kids" defenders both spell border as "boarder."

    My question is do you mean that like, "room and board" or the more obvious, "dog boarder?"




    Mike
     
  21. jerwin macrumors 68020

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    #21
    [​IMG]
     
  22. obeygiant macrumors 601

    obeygiant

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    #22

    Jesus crist, BORDER okay?



    Let's see if democrats ready to change the law and make it work for everyone's benefit or if they just like pointing fingers. I know its a tough decision to make for some.
     
  23. bradl, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

    bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #23
    Looks like there will be a spat in the bedroom again, as the FLOTUS has come out against the POTUS' actions, mirroring Laura Bush's statements in the WaPo.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172w1fk5r7m260

    But here is the thing that Trump and his cronies are NOT mentioning. Also according to the BBC:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172w1fk5r7mffd

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172w1fk5r7m9p8

    The people with children being arrested are being prosecuted en masse instead of as individual cases without access to legal counsel, and are told that the only way they can see their children again is to plead guilty. They also aren't being granted the right to request asylum.

    Seeing how anyone who steps foot into this country is legally granted Constitutionally-protected rights, this would be a clear cut violation of their 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendment rights. The United States of America could easily get their arses handed to them.

    BL.
     
  24. Rhonindk, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018

    Rhonindk macrumors 68040

    Rhonindk

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    #24
    Try this LINK. Number of new articles out after DHS Secretary postings. After taking a good look at this yesterday and today, it looks more like portions are being focused on, emphasized, spun and exaggerated to drive a false narrative or damaging agenda.

    Edit - fixed spell correct introduced errors.
     
  25. LizKat macrumors 603

    LizKat

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    #25
    LOL yeah autocorrect can't do everything, and in some cases even with a grammar checker.

    The point is, if they can't even choose the correct spelling of the homophone they want to deploy in the context of a thread topic, maybe the right wing financiers of the stuff these guys are cutting and pasting from would do better to pitch in some more dough towards the charter schools they all favor.

    We seem in short supply of a lot of basic education, no? Let Breitbart et al sink or swim on their own and focus on the actual plight of some of its readers for a change, instead of just encouraging them to stir pots of which they know not enough even to grab the right handle.

    Meanwhile as to the border laws, Americans are not really fooled by suggestions that that the DoJ is unaware of the laws affecting immigration (regardless of who passed them, winked at them, helped find workarounds favoring either crackdowns or selective easing).

    We have known we have myriad and complex problems related to immigration for decades. We lean now to resolving them --public opinion has said so for a long time now-- and yet there are those who throw up roadblocks in order to try to have specific resolutions go their way or no way. That is not an American way of lawmaking, historically.

    What we are seeing now is a corruption of the DoJ and its agencies by the current administration cherry-picking its way through loopholes or even inventing some that aren't there. This implementation of "immigration law" cannot be supported by anyone who ever understood right from wrong while also acknowledging the humanity of choiceless, undocumented children. What's happening is infamous and will harm us for the foreseeable future wherever we try to argue for human rights elsewhere. Is that too an aim of this administration? To burnish our credentials among totalitarian leaders? One may well wonder.
     

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